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Topic: MSA Classic, 2nd string lower not low enough |
Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 8:00 am |
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Hey folks! Pulling my hair out a bit with my 70's MSA classic 12 string, and trying to set up a whole tone 2nd string lower on my RKR. When I got the guitar, it was originally setup for a half tone lower and was working. So far I've tried:
-changing bellcrank hole to the one farthest from guitar body
-changing bellcrank starting angle to get more leverage
-sizing up my 2nd string from a 15 to a 16
still falling short in lowering to proper pitch! It looks like my lowering finger is maxed out as well (see pic below). Any ideas on what else to try?
Thanks!
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Wayne Brown
From:
Bassano, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 8:51 am steel guitar parts
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This is a constant problem with msa's due to the thickness or heaviness of the return spring. I have run into this when using 2nd string lower 1/2 tone or the 1st string lower a whole tone change... I have found a solution by using a lighter Carter return spring and then it seams to work fine.
Thanks
wayne
_________________
Owner Out West Music,Seats,Parts and accessories
www.outwestcountry.ca
Last edited by Wayne Brown on 9 Jan 2024 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 9:08 am Re: steel guitar parts
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| Wayne Brown wrote: |
This is a constant problem with msa's due to the thickness or heaviness of the return spring. I have run into this when using this or the 1st string lower a whole tone change... I have found a solution by using a lighter Carter return spring and then it seams to work fine.
Thanks
wayne |
Ah k good to know- will try adding a gap or two to the spring and see if that changes anything. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 9:13 am
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If the guitar was originally set up for only a half tone lower, the lever stop was likely set for that travel.
Examine the stop for the KL, and loosen it up a couple turns until you have enough travel for the whole tone.
Following that, you will need to adjust the tuning on any other strings that are on the same lever. |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 9:20 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
If the guitar was originally set up for only a half tone lower, the lever stop was likely set for that travel.
Examine the stop for the KL, and loosen it up a couple turns until you have enough travel for the whole tone.
Following that, you will need to adjust the tuning on any other strings that are on the same lever. |
So here's something interesting! I completely loosened the bellcrank from the rod (so the rod is travelling independent of the lever), grabbed a pair of pliers and pulled on the rod as hard as I could, and it still won't go down to pitch- I think I'm hitting the physical limit of the changer finger? |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 12:19 pm
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For a start.
Engage the knee lever, Watch the knee lever stop, The 2nd string lower lever in the changer as it moves, At the same time watch the 2nd string raise lever too.
Does the 2nd string raise lever pull off the stop bar?
If the raise bar is pulling off the stop bar, The 2nd string return spring is to strong, Or does not have enough travel to make the lower.
I worked on 1973 MSA Classic last spring. I had the same problem on the C6th neck, (Buddy Emmons tuning 8th pedal, 10th string lower from C to A). I could not get it to lower, Without the raise lever pulling off the stop plate. A friend gave me a couple old original MSA return springs. Put an original MSA spring on, And lengthened the spring just a little. Then the string lowered and tuned perfect. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 12:43 pm Re: MSA Classic, 2nd string lower not low enough
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| Jordan Yeo wrote: |
So far I've tried:
-changing bellcrank hole to the one farthest from guitar body
-changing bellcrank starting angle to get more leverage
-sizing up my 2nd string from a 15 to a 16
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One other element you've missed in the pull-train is the location of the pull-rod in the changer. My 1980 MSA has a triple raise/triple lower changer. The pull rod for my 2nd string is in the lowest (closest to floor) hole in the changer. I have no problem making the full step lower with a .015 string. If I correctly understand the operation, moving the rod up higher should give you the same amount of lower with less pull....which amounts to more lower for the same pull distance. Anyway, try experimenting with that.
On RKR (same place mine is) you can also adjust the reversing linkage. There's bell-crank which hits a solid stop on the body. You can adjust it so the starting (at rest) position is farther away from the stop...giving it more travel.
_________________
1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10, 1975 Session 400
1972 Dobro model 66s
Derby SD-10
Tom McDonough |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 2:08 pm
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| Bobby D. Jones wrote: |
For a start.
Engage the knee lever, Watch the knee lever stop, The 2nd string lower lever in the changer as it moves, At the same time watch the 2nd string raise lever too.
Does the 2nd string raise lever pull off the stop bar?
If the raise bar is pulling off the stop bar, The 2nd string return spring is to strong, Or does not have enough travel to make the lower.
I worked on 1973 MSA Classic last spring. I had the same problem on the C6th neck, (Buddy Emmons tuning 8th pedal, 10th string lower from C to A). I could not get it to lower, Without the raise lever pulling off the stop plate. A friend gave me a couple old original MSA return springs. Put an original MSA spring on, And lengthened the spring just a little. Then the string lowered and tuned perfect. |
Raise finger isn't engaging at all actually! Swapped the rod to the higher hole in the changer, was worse performance. Slightly loosened the spring though, and it's getting closer, but still not perfect. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 5:27 pm
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You should have no problem especially with an .016 on there.. There needs to have an adjustment to the lower stop, or the raise finger is pulling up a bit due to a too tight return spring..I used plain old .015 strings for decades on 4 or 5 different MSA Classic guitars, and it would pull down a full tone with ease every time, with room to spare.. Something is not set up right... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 9:05 pm
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| Just slant your bar ! 😆 |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 11:41 pm
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When you say you moved the pull rod in the changer higher. Was that hole closer to the body?
Or farther from the body of the guitar?
The closer to the body the rod is in the changer bar holes, The faster and longer it will raise or lower a string. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 6:45 am
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Jordan, here are some facts:
That lower finger in the changer should move a LOT farther than you're showing in your picture! I can push the lower finger in my (identical?) '73 MSA changer 3/8" to 1/2" farther than shown in your picture. Take a screwdriver and push against the finger where the spring is attached...yours should act similarly
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My guitar has an .015 string, but a slightly lighter lower-return spring, and it makes that change easily. The pull rod is in the top lowering hole in the changer (the one nearest the changer axle), and the rod is in hole #3 on the puller (the 3rd hole from the crossrod).
That said, the finger position in my guitar with the lever activated is very similar to the finger position shown in your picture. I suggest you loosen the setscrew in the brass pin on the puller, and then pull the rod towards the keyhead with a pair of pliers. That will show you how far the lowering finger will actually move, and how far the string will lower. |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 1:58 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Jordan, here are some facts:
That lower finger in the changer should move a LOT farther than you're showing in your picture! I can push the lower finger in my (identical?) '73 MSA changer 3/8" to 1/2" farther than shown in your picture. Take a screwdriver and push against the finger where the spring is attached...yours should act similarly
.
My guitar has an .015 string, but a slightly lighter lower-return spring, and it makes that change easily. The pull rod is in the top lowering hole in the changer (the one nearest the changer axle), and the rod is in hole #3 on the puller (the 3rd hole from the crossrod).
That said, the finger position in my guitar with the lever activated is very similar to the finger position shown in your picture. I suggest you loosen the setscrew in the brass pin on the puller, and then pull the rod towards the keyhead with a pair of pliers. That will show you how far the lowering finger will actually move, and how far the string will lower. |
K I think I might have pinpointed the issue! Tried a bunch of different changer hole/bellcrank hole positions, and I actually might not have been noticing the raise finger starting to move at the very end of the pull. I loosened the puller setscrew, rung the note, and used a screwdriver on the lower finger to push it way far forward, and it obviously can hit that way lower note.
I've added a few gaps to my return spring, but it still seems to be engaging that raise finger. If I don't have a lighter spring, is adding gaps an equivalent? Nervous to not get in a spot where it won't return properly.
Thanks all for the help- much appreciated! |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 2:12 pm
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Those springs are no big deal just standard hardware,, you can try going a size or two lighter and see what happens, or back in the day, I put a bunch of gaps in the spring.. It was ugly but effective.. MSA Classic guitars were arguably the best designed and built pedal guitars of their era, but they made a BIG mistake by not making those lower return springs adjustable... Over the years a few folks offered a setup where all the springs on MSA guitars were made adjustable, and they worked great.. Not sure if anyone still has or makes them.. If I had your guitar, I would concentrate on that 2nd string return spring.. Don't worry about opening up a few gaps, you'll find a TON of other MSA Classics with the exact same gaps... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Jordan Yeo
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 3:17 pm
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
| Those springs are no big deal just standard hardware,, you can try going a size or two lighter and see what happens, or back in the day, I put a bunch of gaps in the spring.. It was ugly but effective.. MSA Classic guitars were arguably the best designed and built pedal guitars of their era, but they made a BIG mistake by not making those lower return springs adjustable... Over the years a few folks offered a setup where all the springs on MSA guitars were made adjustable, and they worked great.. Not sure if anyone still has or makes them.. If I had your guitar, I would concentrate on that 2nd string return spring.. Don't worry about opening up a few gaps, you'll find a TON of other MSA Classics with the exact same gaps... bob |
Amazing thanks Bob- related, but my C pedal (that Donny helped me with via DMs!) was having trouble on 4th string getting up to pitch, and he had me add gaps in my spring there too. If on a raise, my lower finger is moving, is that a symptom of spring being too tight? should I be adding spring gaps until the lower finger is not moving at all on raises?
Also related, If anyone with a well-setup MSA classic from the 70s (even better if its a 12 string in extended E9) would be able to share photos of their rodding setup, much appreciated! Not sure if the previous owner did some funky things to this one before I got it. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 3:17 pm
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The further away(hole location) the pull rod is from the return spring, the more likely it is to get issues with the raise finger moving at the end of the pull(lowering down to C#).
Make sure your pull rod is in the hole closest to the return spring. If that doesnt help then most likely your return spring is too tight/stiff and need to be adjusted or replaced.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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