How many pulls is too many?

Steve Sycamore · From: Sweden

Yes Fred, there is so much potential for PSG to be recognized as a fantastic instrument for playing Jazz. To add to the list of players and albums would be probably my favorite: Doug Jernigan's "Jazz On Ten". His lines and soloing on the more Bebop tunes there are out of this world and beautifully unique.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

I also appreciate Barry Harris, and would be very interested to see your Copedent and an explanation once you are done!

Steve Sycamore · From: Sweden

Six string Jazz specialist Jens Larsen gives a nice explanation of why Barry Harris' concept is not the same as the "Bebop" scale that shares the same notes as the C6/D dim note pattern and why it goes vastly deeper in building a great conceptual and practical framework for both melody and harmony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jria4wPiwdA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I voted "NO" because I feel it's insufficient for a traditional playing approach, even though Jerry Byrd and others, even Universal Pedalist Maurice Anderson in his later years, have well demonstrated that NO pulls are necessary at all!

But I should want to say this, since the Barry Harris Maj6thdim approach is invoked:

A 10 string PSG C6th at the nut/open no pedal/lever engaged gives us:

- CMaj 6th rooted at the 7th string (C)
- Am7th rooted at the 8th string (A), above's relative minor
- FMaj 9th rooted at the 9th string
- Dm11th rooted at the 1st string (D) (or if you have a bottom D instead of C), the relative minor to above FMaj. Many refer to this position as the "Two Below" with P5 only. But it should be seen and understood as a VERY important position of MINOR and Dominant playing, as important as the Am7th relative minor of the M6th described above in the second line.

The tuning is mainly a alternation of minor and Major 3rd intervals separated by one whole step interval (G to A) and the two whole step intervals the top D-string creates with E or C. If one averages out the minor 3rd vs. Maj 3rds and takes in account the middle whole step, the tuning is dangerously close to a diminished tuning... the minor 3rds have it!

The only thing is which is missing badly in the unaltered tuning are TriTone intervals and thus Dominant chords.

And this is why on a BE-setup standard P5 & P6 are called the "main pedals"... because P5 converts the Dm11th last described to a Dominant 9th and P6 the FMaj 9th to an F Dominant 9th. Most other "optional changes like raising the C's half converting the Am7th to A7th (and P8 does that partially in the BE setup), or raising the A's half converting the CMaj6th to C7th.

When you spread these four chords across an octave you assimilate the thinking to Barry Harris's theory of the diminished being the mother of all chords and the deriving of Dominants off ALL 12 Dominants from the 3 Diminished chords available by lowering one of the 4 notes.
4 Dominant positions to each chord spread among 12 frets would mean that they ought to be placed pretty much at every 3rd fret... actually, because of the tuning the fret to fret count from one position to the next is 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4, ... and so forth... ALMOST symmetrical.

So with 4 times 2 pulls you would be able to change all 4 chords and thus all 4 positions of their inversion along the octave to a Dominant and create diminished positions. And thus YOUR quest would be accomplished! You could dive into BH's M6thDim approach!

I wished I had the time to do a video about all that to explain further. It's dreadfully difficult to explain what I am trying to say in writing, I can't even imagine how inconclusive it can appear to the reader.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Consider that what has kept pedal steel guitar outside the world of “real pro jazz” is not so much the shortcomings of the instrument, or limitations of the instrument or the pedals, but the prejudices held towards the steel guitar. By the time the C6 pedals were being standardized in the mid to late 1950s, Jazz already had a pretty clear idea of what the style was made of. Many people see country music, and the instrumentation associated with it, as being hokey and cliche, and I think in the world of “real pro jazz,” this has perhaps served as a set-back for the instrument. Yes, there has been instrumental innovation within the “jazz idiom” since the 1950s, but that has mainly drawn on incorporating elements of rock music (electric bass, synths and electric keyboards, etc) as rock was the dominant form of popular music in the late 20th century.

Due to its established presence in country music, the steel is seen as a novelty in jazz (similar to how the saxophone, with its endless potential in jazz, is often viewed as a novelty flavor in country music), and I don’t think finding a way to out-theory or out-play Buddy Emmons is going to push it over the edge and into that “real pro jazz” world. And even if someone did, it would take quite a few disciples to solidify this impact and based on where the bar has already been set by the C6 masters, that’s a mighty tall order.

The steel does not have a set vocabulary in the world of jazz (what I mean to say is, a stock vocabulary on which to draw, along the lines of what is expected of piano, electric guitar, trumpet etc), so when it does play, it’s not in a position to let the band or the listener down… how could it? it’s never broken through in the way other instruments have in the first place. A horn can only play one note at a time, and a steel has that option, too. We don’t have to play huge chords in an attempt to compete with the piano player’s chordal abilities nor is that expected from “real jazz pros” when they consider our instrument.

In other words, these “limitations” are not what keeps this often pigeonholed instrument out of the world of “real jazz.” If you can play on the level with those “real cats,” that’s because your mind can tell your hands what to do and then you play the damn thing. No redundant pedal with a ton of pulls is going to accomplish this for the player, same as some magic pedal on E9 won’t make someone a better, more fully realized commercial country player.

“It’s the Indian, not the arrow.”

Tom Jordan · From: Wichita, KS

“It’s the Indian, not the arrow.”

Amen, Brother Chris Smile

Tom
_________________
Dekley S10, Nashville Tele w/Parson B Bender, Dobros, Lap Steels
Fender Tube Amps, Evans FET 500, and stuff...

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

Been following this thread for a few days...

I hear what Steve is saying about there being a lack of steel players who are truly operating at the speed of thought...

There are many reasons for this, including the physical nature of the instrument, the cultural patterns, history and expectations at play, and the basic reality of numbers.. Its a relatively niche instrument. If everyone and and their brother played steel, the chances of a pedal steel player here and there becoming a working, musically literate and versatile professional or a so called 'real jazz pro' would be much higher.

For crying out loud though, try your copedent idea and see how it works for yourself.
The only way this instrument has ever evolved is by players trying out new things and new ways. So try it out if you have the time. Some experiments and ideas will fall on their face, or prove redundant, but other ideas will stick, for you, and might even help others, and perhaps nudge the instrument forward just a touch.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

The "It's The Indian - Not The Arrow" is an interesting one. Especially when one looks at the history of Indians vs. the Spaniards, French, Dutch, British... who had swirds, guns and canons.

Somehow, the trajectory of the steel guitar (the "Arrow" in the analogy) IS indeed tightly related to how steel guitarist have -or not- expanded the use of our arr... sorry, INSTRUMENT.

When we look at whom the generations of Joseph Kekuku, Jerry Byrd, Joaquin Murphey, Buddy Emmons listened to, compared to to whom the pyramid of next generations of PSG players listened to, some declaredly "exclusively", one can see the curve of "development" and intrusion into other music styles from "Hawaiian" to Swing, into Country (which at that time still battled accepting electrified guitars or worse even drums) and finally curved into Country almost exclusively.

Most PSG newcomers since the 70's sought to tailer their playing mostly after one generation of PSG players and ONE amazing individual in particular.

Those who came to PSG in the early years from Jazz are few to have made a lasting impression, and only because they accepted to make their LIVING of Country and mostly the tuning which made steel guitar Country and Country itself Country. Curly Chalker, Maurice Anderson come to mind. If my memory serves me well, Lloyd Green convinced CC that E9th was well worth playing and CC became one of the most extraordinary E9th players, even when he managed to remain in our memory as a C6th Jazz musician.

I long tried to emulate my heroes, Jerry Byrd and Speedy West. At times I got close but never so much that it would give me the feelings I got from only listening to them.
I've seen and had to endure listening to would-be Emmons Clones trying to play I Just Destroyed The World (AGAIN??) or A Way To Survive (it), leaving me wonder if they would not have come out of a difficult to cope with mediocracy if they'd just play something else.
I got to the point where I came to realize that I'll never be a JB or SW. So, I walked away from it, grabbed a guitar and began playing rhythm to Gypsy Jazz virtuosos, until I got the itch to get back at the instrument again, but this time, leaving my heroes being my heroes and looking for new influences.

I've said it several times since the book landed on my night chest, to me, the biggest revelation in Buddy Emmon's biography, was how he started tearing the instrument up at 12 or 13 years of age. WHICH was his first record he bought (A Jazz-Blues/Bebop record with among others Charlie Parker, Oscar Peterson, Flip Phillips and Barney Kessel (Mercury MGC 601, you can find it on youtube!)) and played the back side which was ONE 14 min. Jazz Blues improvisation featuring several greats, again and again, practicing on the steel in the dark, day and night.

And what did those which followed him do? They studied him, not his roots.

The C6th pedal setup can be intimidating to the newcomer and quite difficult to understand. It's not like E9th where once you understand that you can press A&B down, something sounding "like music"... a "movement" happens. It may even seem, antiquated and lacking logic. But actually it is surprisingly logic, given it's history of development. Yet, too often it is poorly explained.
The tuning is ALMOST diatonic, especially since the addition of the D string on top and for some players on the bottom. The only note lacking was "B". B would be in the way if it was IN the tuning so a pedal was assigned to make that (P4), which happens to also create a nice 9th to the relative minor (Am7th open) position. P5, P6 and P8 (the later being a spinn off from Jerry Byrds bottom C#, giving him the third chord quality (A Dom7th)) were all designed to create the Dominant chords which the tuning lacks. P7 recreates the M7/9th chord a 4th or respectively 5th apart like on the 9th string rooted FM9th at the 7th string rooted M6th.
Only one missing was raising the 6th degree of the 7th string rooted Major to make it too a Dom7th chord.

Some combinations were probably coincidental as we can see from some setups which have the same changes arranged differently.

Everything else which some complex setups added, only create more repetitions and thus being able to play exactly the same in all 12 keys, or expanding harmonic range into upper structures (9th, 11th and 13ths) in conjuncture to the basic chord tones (lowering the the 5th and/or the 6th string a whole tone) and some special changes like the so called "Maurice" or "Doug" pedal.

I have a very complete setup on my S12 C6th. I have the missing B on the far top (inside-out) and I have a D on the bottom between the low F and final C. 6 Pedals and 8 levers (3 verticals).
Yet all my single note playing is done without pedals, at least at first, as I insist on being able to play what ever I do, without any pedals.
Barry Harris's Major6thDim approach included.
I can run diminisheds across my string, up and down the neck all day and night, even, or rather especially adding the chromatic approach "whole/half, half/whole".
I've worked the same way on BH's chromatic "fixed" scale (fixed to keep chord and scale tones on the DOWN-beat) and found that I play like that naturally and don't need to push myself into running scales. It's music after all... or supposed to be, at least.

And many evenings I come out of the music den like a frolicking Zombie thinking I "got it" to find myself fearful of approaching the instrument the next morning because over night it always dawns on me that I am still only scratching the surface and should seek help.

Learning or worse trying to teach oneself not just an instrument but improvisation is an emotional roller coaster and sometimes as depressing as it can release copious amounts of dopamine, which leads me to understand why so many of the greats sunk into drugs and booze. Luckily, I am too old, to wise and I don't need to make a living to let myself be tempted by that kind of "help". I am married with a bunch of kids, that's difficult enough and it's going to kill me soon enough! Ha!

INDIANS! Ha! Had they had guns and canons!

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Steve Sycamore · From: Sweden

Lots of really interesting perceptions, and many which I already have experienced in the last decade or two...

If I may... The ONE thing which might possibly deaden the ear of any sophisticated Jazz listener upon hearing a PSG rendition of any particular standard is an overuse of pure dominant 7th tonality, and of course more or less undisguised simple embellishments of those dominant 7th chords like the 9th or even 13th.

That might put the "hillbilly" stamp on the music more than anything else... So if your Indians are playing that music, no matter how intense they might make it, it is always going to be mentally characterized as hillbilly music by some.

That's one of the main reasons that it might be wise, or at least high time to consider modernizing the approach to harmony (and with it comes melody hopefully).

But sure, tastes in music vary a great deal from player to player and from audience to audience. Maybe a decent way forward is to avoid the clichés and well worn ditches and try to make something that has a fresh and universally appealing savor?

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The “sophisticated” listener is probably going to be disappointed A LOT, no matter who is playing what. Screw that guy.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Ironically, often when I get dragged to Jazz festivals I'm the one who's disappointed haha. I'm all for the use of music theory concepts, no matter how sophisticated, but much of modern jazz is no longer concerned with sounding good, much like modern visual art is no longer concerned with beauty. Both tend to wear their lack of popularity as a badge of honor: as proof that they are somehow more legitimate because nobody wants to listen or see what they are doing outside they're insular clique. That's the wrong response.

Chopin, Bach, Liszt, and dozens of others wrote glorious music which billions listened to over hundreds of years, and which employ almost every theoretical musical concept we can imagine. Nobody needs a degree to appreciate their works, and millions have studied music precisely because they were so inspired by their works. In contrast I have not heard one Jazz original from recent decades I liked. And for all the talk of sophistication and theory, when I go to festivals it's technically flawless musicians playing 85% 2-5-1 progressions of some kind, or some ugly reharmonization of a classic to make it 'unique.' I have yet to hear anything like the theoretical mastery and raw talent required to write Chopin's Prelude in E minor, Op. 28, No 4, for example. In fact if Chopin was a modern composer, and showed up at a modern jazz festival and played it, he would probably get booed.

I'm willing to be wrong and I'd like to hear something great out of modern jazz. Although I study it from time to time and it's a popular topic of conversation, studying Classical music has led to far more variety and far more useful ideas. I'll probably be thinking about Chopin, Monti, and Rachmaninoff until I'm dead.

Steve Sycamore · From: Sweden

Yupp. I still continue soul searching over what it is I want to hear and portray in music and agree that many performers, no matter what style they apply themselves to, do not trigger a "must listen" reaction. A person can definitely over-intellectualize a subject and in doing so miss the point that probably music operates best in expressing things of the soul or emotions or experiences.

There is a pretty interesting overlap between the somewhat more modern classical composers and more adventurous Film Music composers. That is an area that employs sophisticated and advanced techniques yet nearly always conjures musical experiences that bypass the intellect and produce vivid reactions.

P.S. Bob Lee's unique "Chromatic" copedent looks like it would be worth studying and thinking through. It seems much more general in nature in being able to perform any particular phrase.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Right on, Justin. You are talking about players and composers who, aside from flaunting their own drive to be difficult to follow for the sake of being difficult to follow, they try to cater to a misconceived “advanced” music fan, and end up overdoing it to the point of sounding like utter garbage that nobody gets, except that one pretentious geek who shouts “YEAH!” like he’s at a Skynrd concert.

Steve, I set up my S12/E9 copedent to have every chromatic scale tone between strings 1-11, because I like stretching my own limits of music theory too, and a capable instrument is fun to have. It’s not always easy to get from one note to the next in that scale, but they’re all there, and I can make some darned ugly sounds on it that would probably make the aforementioned geeky sophisticate give me a war whoop for playing.

Steve Sycamore · From: Sweden

Fred, I'm very curious to learn more about your copedent. Is there a link with more information?

One thing that surprises me about deep "Jazz" players is that some are able to take those apparent "ugly" series of tones and make something beautiful with them. Just why is a mystery, but probably a lot has to do with, as they say: tension and release. Being able to get far out and then come back to the base tonality at the right moment seems key...

My own experience and preferences, which lead back to, for example Bach, is that dominant 7th tonality is really an invitation to modal interchange. So that you are free to delve into harmonic and melodic minor passages with the option to resolve back into the diatonic...

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Here you go, Steve.
The C note is on a split with Pedal 1 & 2. Everything else is there with basically standard changes; a two-octave chromatic scale on strings 1-11.

I believe your comment about players who can take the outside back in has a lot of merit. There is tasteful use of dissonance and there is the other kind. It is in the ear and heart of the player and the listener, of course, so it is an entirely subjective observation.

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I think the two-feet approach could be ground braking if the pedals were placed in a dedicated position for the right foot, right were the volume pedal would be. It would change every thing.
Then, adding Fuji’s (Excel) switch-change ability to the other 5 or 6 left foot pedals and lever so that with a total of 7 or 8 pedals and 6 or 7 levers you would have 3 to 4 times as many changes than most yould have on an S12 Universal.

A mechanical nightmare to conceive and build, and probably only tunable to ET.

If my memory serves me well, Joaquin Murphy had a set of 2 pdals for his left and 2 or 3 for his right foot.

… JD.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Jim Cooley · From: The 'Ville, Texas, USA

How many pulls are too many? To me it depends on what you're really trying to achieve and whether it is feasible to expect reasonable results. Only you can decide what that is. It's your business if you want to actuate a knee lever with a come-along. I've had this exact discussion with no less than three reputable pedal steel builders, and at least that many extremely skilled pedal steel mechanics. The builders all said they will give you as many pulls as you are willing to pay for, provided that there is room under the cabinet and on the pedal bar. However, they all also told me that since there is a finite amount of space with which to work, there is a point of diminishing returns. Somewhere, sometime, something invariably interferes with something else. A friend once told me that pulls are nice, but there is value in learning to play on top of the guitar. (re: Lloyd Green.)

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

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