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Topic: Q: Some mechanics on Williams guitars |
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2023 12:25 pm |
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Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of the way pull rods attach to bell cranks on a modern Williams guitar? Love to see a closeup pic of those.
Also, anyone using dual staggered levers on the left knee, how do they fit, and is fit/placement adjustable at all? I can manage a LKL-F, kind of want a LKR-F. I raise and lower E's on the right knee, so staggered levers can all be used with those main levers. Curious how 2 staggered levers work out on Williams.
Thanks, guys and gals!
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Rick Bernauer
From:
Kansas, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2023 10:11 am
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Hi, John. I hope you're doing. Here are some pictures of my Williams Series 700. Nice guitar - but I haven't changed much, so I can't tell you how easy your staggered levers would be. Let me know if you need other pictures.
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2023 3:29 pm
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[quote="Rick Bernauer"]Hi, John. I hope you're doing. Here are some pictures of my Williams Series 700. Nice guitar - but I haven't changed much, so I can't tell you how easy your staggered levers would be. Let me know if you need other pictures."
Thanks for the clear images, Rick! So end of the pull rods are L-shaped, and held in place by kind of square-ish loops? I do love the single blade bell cranks, but no experience with that retaining method. Maybe they're less fiddly than my Mullen's tiny hole and tiny cotter pin method, though once engaged, it's rock solid.
What pickup are you using?
How's your steel playing coming along? You're always welcome back for a "special studies" session if desired!!
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▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 7:56 am
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Hi John -
Here's a picture I had kicking around of my 700 Series U12 with staggered levers on LKL. When I decided I wanted to add it, Bill Rudolph sent me a package with the hardware needed and instructions on how to install.
- Slim
 [/img]
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Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 7:58 am
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Another view...
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 8:11 am
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Thanks for the pics, Slim. I attended school near you for a year, UCSC. How did you fare in this year's flooding?
Is the LKL-F attached to a custom short crossrod pushing left to a full crossrod? It's a little hard to tell with all the shadows. Looks pretty tight in there!
If you've done any moving things around, do the bell cranks stay in place while being tightened to the crossrods?
I had a Carter and couldn't for the life of me get bell cranks to stay put when being tightened, forced me to get it to Jim Palenscar to deal with a big copedent change.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 8:39 am
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| John McClung wrote: |
| Thanks for the pics, Slim. I attended school near you for a year, UCSC. How did you fare in this year's flooding? |
We did fine -- we're very close to the beach in Aptos that was devastated (earning a presidential visit), but we're at a high elevation on a cliff a couple of blocks from the water, so we were thankfully untouched.
| John McClung wrote: |
Is the LKL-F attached to a custom short crossrod pushing left to a full crossrod? |
Yes, the short cross rods replace the original full length one. Couple more pics...
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 9:10 am
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Note that while the cranks look like they are comb style, in fact the slots are smaller than the rod. The rod inserts into the hole at the base of the slot. This means that if there is excess slack (either inadvertent or caused by a different lever) the rod will not fall out of the crank.
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 11:52 am
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Nice images, Jon and Slim! Thanks for showing me the ropes...er rods.
So the pull rod's retaining clip simply holds the L end of the rod snug to the bell crank? I'll ask my Seattle tech Patrick Timmins to hold any Williams that comes through his shop so I can see all this in person.
Jon, I think I recall you have dual staggered levers on the left? Are both LKR levers perfectly aligned, or offset a bit, and is the front your main one and you scootch in your seat to pull the knee back to grab the LKR-R?
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 12:24 pm
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My LKR-rear is such contortion lever that I consider it a failure and I've abandoned it on the Sierra that Ross is building me. Whether that has anything to do with the geometry of the arc of the movement of my short legs or not, I do not know. My LKR-rear is to the right of LKR-front . The rear requires a major butt scootch.
Exacerbating the situation is that the front lever is a LONG throw because it lowers 6 a whole step. My Williams has huge cabinet drop and for stability, a wound 6 is all I will use, resulting in the long lever throw. So the LKR-rear has to be positioned farther to the right of LKR-front in order to not incidentally engage it during front lever action.
Plain 6th string, short lever stroke.....maybe a different story? No matter. I've got a workaround for the pull I'm losing by ditching the lever. |
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Landon Johnson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Sep 2023 7:24 pm
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| John McClung wrote: |
If you've done any moving things around, do the bell cranks stay in place while being tightened to the crossrods?
I had a Carter and couldn't for the life of me get bell cranks to stay put when being tightened, forced me to get it to Jim Palenscar to deal with a big copedent change. |
This has been problematic for me at times; when tightening the bellcrank there's about 1/16 inch between the setscrew and the crossbar. This can be seen in the pics. As a result, when turning the Allen screw the bellcrank will turn until the Allen screw contacts the crossbar. I solved it by making a small jig that allows me to hold the bellcrank perpendicular while tightening the screw.
Also, I have a Willy and live pretty close by - I also have most of those parts if you're thinking of having a lever added. Mine had one when I got it (on LKL) and I removed it because I couldn't set it up where I could reach it (and I don't know how to use it anyway 
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1989 Mullen PRP SD-10, 2021 Williams S-10, Quilter TT-12. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2023 8:23 am
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| Quote: |
| So end of the pull rods are L-shaped, and held in place by kind of square-ish loops? I do love the single blade bell cranks, but no experience with that retaining method. Maybe they're less fiddly than my Mullen's tiny hole and tiny cotter pin method, though once engaged, it's rock solid. |
Yes.
The retaining clips are a convenient and clever design. Since the rod does not wrap around the slot, the clips are essential. If one of them falls off or breaks or otherwise disappears, the rod just kinda dangles its way loose from the slot and falls out, and there is no jerry-rigging it back into place so it will stay.. This happened to me not long ago. I had Bill send me a dozen of those clips and keep them in my guitar case. |
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Slim Heilpern
From:
Aptos California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2023 8:42 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So end of the pull rods are L-shaped, and held in place by kind of square-ish loops? I do love the single blade bell cranks, but no experience with that retaining method. Maybe they're less fiddly than my Mullen's tiny hole and tiny cotter pin method, though once engaged, it's rock solid. |
Yes.
The retaining clips are a convenient and clever design. Since the rod does not wrap around the slot, the clips are essential. If one of them falls off or breaks or otherwise disappears, the rod just kinda dangles its way loose from the slot and falls out, and there is no jerry-rigging it back into place so it will stay.. This happened to me not long ago. I had Bill send me a dozen of those clips and keep them in my guitar case. |
While I've yet to have one break (my Williams is 6 years old) having some extras around does sound like a good idea -- so thanks for mentioning this!
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Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com |
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Travis Beam
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2023 11:39 am
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Hi John,
I have dual levers on the left knee on my Williams. The LKL-F works fine for me I just have to do a little scootch and kind of stab it with my knee. The LKR-F is pretty much useless for me though as I can’t engage it without also engaging the lever that lowers the E’s. It also has a long throw and my body just doesn’t move how it needs to in order to make it work.
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2023 1:29 pm
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| Travis Beam wrote: |
Hi John,
I have dual levers on the left knee on my Williams. The LKL-F works fine for me I just have to do a little scootch and kind of stab it with my knee. The LKR-F is pretty much useless for me though as I can’t engage it without also engaging the lever that lowers the E’s. It also has a long throw and my body just doesn’t move how it needs to in order to make it work.
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The difficulty with the LKR-Front or rear seems pretty common, and will be the final thing I try. On my steels, E's raise and lower are on the right knee, so a LKR-R would be a desired but not vital change, and not cause major problems with a prime lever lowering E's. I think pulling back from the LKR-F to reach LKR-R may be the most workable setup with dual staggered levers.  I know about the "scooch" for LKL-F!
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2023 8:55 pm
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| I have four guitars with what used to be called "Crawford Clusters" on the left knee (one a Williams 400 Series). FWIW, I find Jimmie Crawford's description of operating the cluster accurate. For LKL front, "just poke your knee in more"; for me, at least, this entails minimal body adjustment, really no "scooch" (ergonomic measurements are critical, of course). Like JC, I have the LKR levers set up so that LKR front is the one that the knee hits in its natural arc; LKR rear does involve what Buddy E. quoted JC as referring to as "cheekage", i.e. pulling back on the seat. Hence I put my least-used change on that lever. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 15 Oct 2023 9:42 am
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John:
I have had my new 12-string D13th for five weeks and I can't say enough about the ease-of-changing pulls.
And I should know!!! Just two days ago, I switched my pedals 2,3, and 4 to the 1,2,3 position, then moved #1 to position 4. Apart from the 70 minutes of intense concentration, it was physically easy.
I've lost count of the changes I've made since it was delivered. Yes, Bill set it up exactly as I'd asked but, four weeks of getting to grips with D13th has taught me that 'theorizing on paper' has its drawbacks.
Those tiny retaining-loops work extremely well. You simply prise them off with a flat-blade screwdriver, then put them back. They'll stand a lot of bending and bending back again.
The bell-cranks are way better than those on my Emmons. The Emmons ones can get distorted and bent where they slip over the cross-shaft. I know nothing about metallurgy but the Williams B/Cs are cast (I think), retain their shape and slip on and off easily once you've loosened the screw holding them tight on the cross-shaft.
Others have provided excellent photos, so I won't add any. Let me know if there's anything you'd like to see, though.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 15 Oct 2023 10:33 am
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Bill was extremely thorough when he asked about the measurement from the back-apron to the staggered (inside) LKL. He had me measure my Emmons precisely and said that's where he'd mount mine on the Williams.
The Williams' LKV adjustment is, they say, infinite, but I have still ended up with a short length of pool-noodle on mine! My legs must be the shortest on the Forum.
(My Emmons has pool-noodle on both my LKV and my MKV (C6th); the Emmons adjustment is lamentably inadequate.)
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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