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Topic: Starting on Lap Steel. Finger Problems. |
Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2023 5:45 pm |
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I started learning to play 6 and 12 string guitar back about 1962. At the time I wanted to play what we called "folk music", old timey country (Jimmy Rogers and etc), and stuff like Hank Snow, Jim Reeves and Eddie Arnold for vocal accompaniment. I took a couple lessons with a guy. He taught me basic chords and 3 or 4 finger rolls to do some finger picking. When I got to high school they needed a guitar player for the school Jazz Band, so I bought an electric, learned a bunch of chords and strummed my way through.
And that's pretty much where I stopped getting good. I did learn Travis picking and can do some chord melodies but never did learn to REALLY solo up the neck and can't do much more than noodle around once I get past the 5th fret. Yes, I can read music, but cannot translate it to the finger board.
Well now I'm 73. I bought all the parts to build a lap steel, but I am so damn horny to start playing I bought a cheap SX which should be here tomorrow.
The temptation to just learn a couple chords and noodle around is strong, but I REALLY REALLY want to learn to play this time. I still want to play pretty much the same stuff, with the addition of some Hawaiian stuff (I got addicted to some Doug Beaumier guy on YouTube) and maybe some 60's & 70's country rock.
Based on my 50 years of "experience" I don't think I need lessons ... yet. About a month ago I bought a book, "Basic C6th Nonpedal Lap Steel Method" by DeWitt Scott from Mel Bay. A lot of folks recommended it. I've read through the book about 4 times and now I'm going through it again, making notes and singing the exercises.
I did order The C6 series from GeorgeBoards which arrived today.
My plan is to hide the George Board DVDs until I can play every page of the DeWitt Scott book ... then fill in with the GB stuff ... and move on to other stuff from there. I got a lot of time these days. Not much money ... but as lot of time.
Anybody got any opinions, additions, suggestions or opinions? Like I said, I would really like to learn properly this time.
Last edited by Ted Duncan on 20 Oct 2023 9:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 26 Jul 2023 7:32 pm
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Here are the things I wish I knew.
1. Learn the nashville number system. Simplifies things greatly.
2. When you pick your tuning (C6 I'm guessing?) map out every chord position on a single fret. I map it in Google Sheets, a free spreadsheet program that is available on any device. Putting slants aside for the moment, you only have as many chords as you can make on a single fret. So, map out your open strings and that will give you all your straight bar chord possibilities. here are some examples of my mapping a 12 string eharp tuning:
3. If you already know music, just apply what you know to mapped out neck. Listen to some players and get a tool like Transcribe to slow down and loop things you want to learn.
4. Get something like IRealPro so you can create your own backing tracks to practice over.
5. Most important: Have fun!
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2023 7:02 am
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The FedEx guy just dropped off the SX I ordered. Having never held a lap steel before, I have 2 observations: 1. It is REALLY thin. 2. It is REALLY light. The lap steel I am building is easily twice as thick and has 3 times the weight. I'm building mine following a book, "It's Easy to Build Your Own Lap Steel Guitar" and stuff I found researching the internet. I'm also using actual wood. Maybe the SX people found a different book.
Thanks for the reply, Bill ... I really appreciate the tips.
BTW
1. Back in the 19 and 60's when I learned to transpose tunes to suit my voice, I learned how to do it the Nashville way, but never knew the process by that name. I just thought of it as the way music worked. Then when I heard the name, I thought The Nashville Number System was something new and different and I didn't want to get confused, so I avoided the thing altogether. Eventually I found out it was what I had been doing all along.
2. Yes, I will be starting in C6. That's where about 80% of the music I want to play lives. Using google to map out the neck and etc is a great idea. Thanks.
3. Many years ago I bought Band-in-a-box and used to load in Jazz standards to mess around with. But that computer died.
Again, thank's for the tips!
T. |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 27 Jul 2023 7:25 am
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Hi Ted
Sounds to me like you have a pretty good musical foundation , some good resources , and the time so the rest is putting in the effort .
Get comfortable with the bar and finger picks and start learning tunes.
Jerry |
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Samuel Phillippe
From:
Douglas Michigan, USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2023 7:45 am
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[Ted:"I got addicted to some Doug Beaumier guy on YouTube)"]
Ted,
Doug is right here on this forum with you. IMHO you picked a great player to follow.
Enjoy learning the lap steel they are a lot of fun and who knows maybe, like me, you'll get the urge to try pedal steel. Even more fun.....
Have fun.
Sam. |
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2023 7:59 am
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| Samuel Phillippe wrote: |
[Ted:"I got addicted to some Doug Beaumier guy on YouTube)"]
Ted,
Doug is right here on this forum with you. IMHO you picked a great player to follow.
Enjoy learning the lap steel they are a lot of fun and who knows maybe, like me, you'll get the urge to try pedal steel. Even more fun.....
Have fun.
Sam. |
I could listen to him play Hawaiian all night long. Him and that young fellow on YT who plays all the Squarepants somethingor other stuff. |
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John Sims
From:
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
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Posted 1 Aug 2023 1:59 pm
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Hey Ted, I have an SX, and I like it, a lot! I also built my own lap steel and had fun doing it. My SX is C6 tuning and my DIY steel which you can see at https://youtu.be/_4wT47G_hi0 is Open D tuning. I'm sure you'll figure it all out with the great guys on this forum!
_________________
Regards,
John
Steelin' is a way of life!
1997 Carter U-12 Double Body-Natural Birdseye Maple-8p/5k, Peavey Nashville 1000 Amp, Goodrich L10K Vol. Pedal, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss CE-5 Chorus, Behringer UMC-204HD Audio Interface, AKAI MPK Mini MK3 Professional Midi Keyboard/Controller, Gretsch Bobtail Resonator, Fender Banjo, Rondo SX Lap Steel (C6), DIY Lap Steel (Open D), a few Mojo Hand Cigar Box Guitars (MojoHandGuitars.com). |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 8:02 am
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It is VERY important to have good foundational technique. The way you sit and hold your guitar (or seated at a console), the position of your arms and hands, the way you attack the strings, picking finger strength and independence, bar accuracy, muting both in front of and behind the bar - all these things can either help or hinder your ability to play actual music, depending on whether they are developed correctly or not.
When you do start playing music, as Bill Mc points out, having a fretboard roadmap is great, and learning the basic 1-4-5 positions of a given key will help immensely. And, as Bobby Black once pointed out to me, don’t forget your open strings. Jeez, he played some altered 7th chords using an open string or two on my Stringmaster D8 that I didn’t believe were possible. And don’t get me started on his Hawaiian style. Jerry Byrd may have been the King, but Bobby is certainly the crown Prince.
Almost forgot to mention Joe Wright’s free lesson pages on the Sierra Steel Guitar website. Perfect for beginners.
http://sierrasteels.com/lessons/lap-lessons.html |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 10:32 am
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Well now I'm 73. I bought all the parts to build a lap steel, but I am so damn horny to start playing I bought a cheap SX which should be here tomorrow.
If you can still get horny at 73, I'd say half your goal is accomplished. The 2nd half should be cake!  BTW I was born in 1950, so I know where you are coming from!!!!
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 7:55 pm
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Doug Beaumier sells two great instructional booklets for C6th lap steel / check his Website.
Highly recommended.... |
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Joe Burke
From:
Toronto, Canada
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 1:21 pm
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One aspect of technique that I am still struggling with, is to float the picking hand above the strings. I tend to put the heal of my hand down as a kind of anchor or foundation from which to pick. Its OK sometimes, but it often inhibits fluid playing.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 2:51 pm
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I see anything that enchorages anchoring the picking hand, as a liabilty against fluid picking.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother.
Last edited by David Matzenik on 3 Aug 2023 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 5:14 pm
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| David Matzenik wrote: |
| One aspect of technique that I am still struggling with, is to float the picking hand above the strings. I tend to put the heal of my hand down as a kind of anchor or foundation from which to pick. Its OK sometimes, but it often inhibits fluid playing. |
The floating hand is for pick-blocking. Fine if you get good at it.
The default hand position for palm-blocking is resting on the strings. This is not the same as “anchoring”, which implies immobility, which is a no-no, which may not be what Bill Mc meant with his handrest comment. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 7:07 pm
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Fred,
You'll notice the clear plastic handrest on the eharp I posted. It is designed to rest your palm on and gives perfect placement for pick blocking. That is what I meant. All the subsequent eharp designs all had handrest.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 5:38 am
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WOW! We had a couple fairly rowdy thunderstorms roll through the hills of north Georgia earlier this week that tore things up pretty good. I've been away from my desk doing clean-up and looking after somethings I've been putting off.
I've been so busy and tired after that I haven't done anything with that SX I bought but take it out of the box. Needless to say, I haven't been on the computer much.
I am knocked flat by all of the responses, kind thought, and good solid suggestions all y'all have made. I hope you know how much I appreciate all of it. I will make good use of all of it. Thank you all very much.
Starting with the topic of "picking" or right hand technique, I will attempt to reply to what you all posted about that.
For everybody who made suggestions about right hand technique, like the one below:
| David Matzenik wrote: |
| One aspect of technique that I am still struggling with, is to float the picking hand above the strings. I tend to put the heal of my hand down as a kind of anchor or foundation from which to pick. Its OK sometimes, but it often inhibits fluid playing. |
As I mentioned, I started finger picking back in the 19and60s and have been doing it ever since. I RARELY use a flat pick (plectrum), maybe once or twice a decade. What's more ... I have tried thumb and finger picks a number of times in the past and thoroughly dislike them. I always feel like I am cleaner, faster and more accurate without them. I've always been able to get exactly the tone I want without them ... BUT (and a big ol' butt at that) from where I sit right now, it looks like the lap steal is a very different instrument compared to a regular guitar. I know I will have to give them a try.
I learned early that my thumb has to be able to both keep a strong, steady alternate bass beat but also be capable of independent action anytime its required ... what's more ALL of the digits must be able to pick the correct note accurately and with precision.
I do have a flaw ... I have always used my pinky as a support, not so much to carry my hand but to locate it in reference to the strings and in such a way that I can use the heel of my hand to mute the strings. I see I'm going to have to give that up pretty quick.
I tend to think my experience with right hand technique will be very helpful with learning lap steel.
T.
Last edited by Ted Duncan on 5 Aug 2023 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 5:57 am
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Hey ... I listen to your stuff on YT. Silver String is a great tune ... and you do the Hawaiian stuff nicely too. The double 6 you played on at least one of them is a neat lap steel. Did you build that?
You should post more tunes on YT.
T. |
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 6:18 am
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For those who recommended the learning resources of Joe Wright, Andy Volk and Doug Beaumier, I will definitely look into all that. Thank you.
I had said I wasn't going to listen to any of the Georgeboard C-6 DVDs until I got started in the "Basic C6th Nonpedal Lap Steel Method" book. Well, I guess we all know how it goes when you're horny. On night after cutting, trimming, raking, hauling and stacking the after effects of the storms, I listened to ALL of them. And I was real satisfied that I did.
It turns out that his "Lap Steel Guitar 101 C6th Tuning (parts 1 & 2)", "Book 1 Getting Started C6" and "Picking Techniques for the Lap Steel Guitar" fit hand-in-glove with DeWitt Scott's book. The clear videos and sound adds so much ... I highly recommend the combination to ANYONE beginning to learn lap steel. And for those on a low or fixed income, believe me, you get a LOT for a little.
I finally have a free afternoon. I'm going to tune up the SX and give it a try.
T. |
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 1:36 pm
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UPDATE:
Well, using an electronic tuner as a guide, I tuned it up. And re-tuned it immediately. And then I tuned it again. I picked a couple notes, slid the slide ... and tuned it again.
The strings are not very even across. I have to push down on the slide quite a bit to contact all the strings, and when I've done that, some of the strings are no longer in tune with the others, although its in tune when the strings are open.
But then it goes out of tune and I have to do it again.
Even when in tune, the strings are kind of floppy. Some (but not me) might use the word "flaccid".
And then you have to tune it again.
I have already bought a couple sets of strings specifically for C-6 tuning.
Although I don't think this will work, my plan is to let it sit somewhat in tune and see what it's like after the strings have stretched for a couple hours. And I've re-tuned it.
I think the fix will be installing a C-6 set of strings and having a go at the nut and bridge with a proper file to bring the strings to level across all 6. Then tune it again and take another shot at "Pearly Shells".
If anyone has any observations, advice or suggestions please pass them along.
BTW, The amp I am using is my trusty old Polytone Mini-Brute II. I think it should be OK for a lap steel but I might try to vacuum out any crusty old jazz chords that may still be lurking in there. All them flat5s and flat9s might impact the CEGACE. You never know. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 2:43 pm
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If the notes aren't even than you have a problem with your the gauges in your nut. Are you tuning straight up 440? or are you flatting your 3rds somewhat? Reece Anderson taught a method where he would tune the 3rds to 440 and everything else to 442 and that worked for C6 for him.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Ted Duncan
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 3:33 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| If the notes aren't even than you have a problem with your the gauges in your nut. |
I think you mean "string" and not "notes" here.
I haven't taken the guitar down to the shop and got out the straight edge and feeler gauges yet ... but using a fresh business card and my Mk I eyeball I can see that at least one (the A in CEGACE) seems high.
Just remember, this is not a C-6 specific set of strings. I haven't miked what the strings on it are ... they could be anything. Also the nut and bridge on this guitar isn't much to write home about but should be OK.
I will measure everything before filing anything. Its a rule.
| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Are you tuning straight up 440? or are you flatting your 3rds somewhat? Reece Anderson taught a method where he would tune the 3rds to 440 and everything else to 442 and that worked for C6 for him. |
I was not aware of that ... I will look into it.
Again, my problem is the strings are coming out of tune pretty much just sitting there, but it doesn't look like they are slipping on the tuners.
About strings on lap steels:
1. Do you lap steel guys "tie" the strings on? Since I learned about it years ago, I have always tied the strings on my guitars using a Luthier's knot to prevent slipage.
2. Do the strings on lap steels feel loose ... like way looser than the strings on a regular acoustic guitar? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2023 6:38 pm
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The lap steel strings should be quite a bit tighter than acoustic guitar strings. It is important that you match string gauge to the scale of your lap steel. If they feel loose, they are probably meant for a longer scale neck. Or maybe a shorter one, I forget now 😎. Regardless, it does make a difference.
I don’t tie my strings and I don’t know anybody who does. But I don’t know many people.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 5 Aug 2023 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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