Aluminum vs Wood Neck

John Larson · From: Pennsyltucky, USA

Is there a distinct tonal difference in an aluminum (Emmons, GFI, etc) vs wood (Sho-Bud, Williams, etc) neck on a pedal steel.

Does this make a large difference in the sound or is this simply a cosmetic or construction preference?

Pics related of two players who always sound like themselves so I lean towards negligible.

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Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

I ve taken wood necks off of guitars and played with a dummie fretboard, weight savings, no tone difference, one of the reasons for alloy neck is to save weight, it’s just a hollow tunnel with a fretboard glued on, it’s not a solid piece of alloy…Tonal differences in guitars are generally due to other factors but the neck seems to take a lot of heat on that topic.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

The only meaningful test is trying both necks on the same guitar. I believe I've read of people doing that test and concluding that any differences are in the head (ooh -- shiny metal.....glistening tone....wood....woody tone....")

Bill Rudolph says that wood-neck Williams have less cab drop than aluminum so the choice can be more than cosmetic. Like a fool, I went with aluminum.

I know Greg but who is the steeler with the keyless Williams?

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Buddy Emmons did a test with the application of the aluminum neck. He loosened (lightly snug) the screws that held the aluminum neck onto the guitar and found the sustain to be better. He tightened the neck screws and the sustain dropped. I tried the same test with the wooden neck on my MSA. I found the opposite with wooden necks. The sustain was much better with the wooden neck tightened as tight as possible. Tone...I found no difference.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Maurice Anderson had experimented with wood verses aluminum necks way back. He found that the tonal qualities came from the first few inches of neck and didn’t find any appreciable difference between wood and metal. I read that somewhere few years back but don’t remember where or I’d put a link.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I have a Williams and an Excel and I have never been conscious of any significant difference in tone.

Of course there are many other differences apart from the neck, particularly the scale length, and they certainly feel different.

I suppose I should set up a side-by-side comparison.
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I have done side-by-side comparisons with two lacquer Emmons push-pull guitars and similar pickups, and found a decided difference.

In general the aluminum neck enhanced the highest frequencies, amplifying every deficiency in damping technique, very brassy. The wood neck guitar was much more easily controlled, sweet and warm.

I practiced with the aluminum neck guitar and took it out for stage work, and kept the wood necks in the recording studio.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

I've put some thought over the years in to the whole "tonewood" thing or in this case wood vs. aluminum necks.

I think the same thing applies to both. The guitar body - namely everything that is not active string length - is not an inert string holding device. The body resonates - clearly. If the body is resonating then the places the strings attach are resonating as well. Moving is a better way to put it.

The body will resonate however it resonates - given what it's made out of, how stuff's connected, even glues used/fasteners used.

So the body construction HAS to have an effect (however much) on how the strings vibrate. The body imparts it's own resonance on the string's vibration where they meet.

All this before you talk about a pick-up.

So I fully believe that guitars can sound different based on neck material, body material and type of wood (if even wood), mica vs. lacquer, stainless stuff vs. aluminum or brass, how the neck it attached, how tightly it's attached, weight of whole unit and individual parts. All that stuff. How much effect these have is another question.

It's my feeling though, that there can be as much or more variation in sound between two of the same guitars than whatever difference in sound two dis-similar guitars may have. If that makes sense. Natural variation of the whole instrument makes more of a difference that one other change - sometimes.

I've had a aluminum neck PP and now have a wood neck one - they both sound like an Emmons...about the same as far as I can remember.

I tell you what though - the wood neck one is way cooler - for my taste. Cool

John Larson · From: Pennsyltucky, USA

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I had an MSA Universal with a wood neck the tone/sustain of such I was never happy with so now I am biased toward Aluminum necks.
Off topic here but, the guitarist beside Greg is Val McCallum, a monster player in his won right. Both he and Greg tour with Jackson Browne. I had the opportunity to Jam with Val when we were visiting a mutual singer/songwriter friend whom which we had both recorded for. Val lives in VT.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Paul Franklin, Sr, told me there is no tone difference between Paul Jr's wood neck and aluminum neck guitars.
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Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Sustain:
Tighten the wood neck for better sustain.
Loosen the aluminum neck for better sustain.
Tighten the key head for better sustain.
Lower the pickup for better sustain.
Good quality new strings for better sustain.
Quality hardwood body for better sustain.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Gary Kaye · From: California, USA

I find Eric’s tone with his Willy is killer for my taste...I know part of his gear includes his Willy with a Alumitone, Sarno freeloader, tube amps and guessing a Strymon for verb, delay

Tasteful player and listen to him every chance I get!.I would love to get his tone from my Desert Rose....

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Well built Steel Guitars started havin tonal issues from the moment on they became Consoles.
Every electric instrument has a tone-board which structurally holds the strings and also oposes the vibrating strings’ mass with a much bigger mass.
If steel guitars could be made of paper, it would “fly away” from plucking a string. If it would be carved of a granite block, one would almost feel no vibration on the granite soundboard because the mass of the vibrating string would be so insignificant im comparsion.

Materials play a big role, high mass and brittle woud seem most attractive to further purity and long sustain.

Aluminum:
The best sounding Steel Guitars based on aluminum necks are almost universally reckognized as the orginal Rickebacher Frypan (all aluminum), the Bigsby (many have a complete keyhead thru neck and bridge cast aluminum UNIT placed on the woodem console), early Emmons PP’s, namely the WrapAround and the BoltOn models (cast aluminum semi-units (tje neck is separated from the keyhaed that thou “embraces”. The changer either IN the neck or the neck “embracing” it too.

All have 1 factor in common: CAS aluminum, which in contrast to later “aluminum neck” guitars was replaced with softer, molecularly totally different extrusion aliminum which is “pasty” in shapeability and can be bent, while cart aluminum is brittle and will break. No bell is lathed out of billet metal, they are CAST.
Same holds thrue for endplates which are especially important on PSGs where the mechanism may use them as resting or stopping posts.

Consoles:
We discussef soundboard mass vs. string mass.
To get a string requires giving it the energy to do it and we do that by pulling it with force and releasing it… “picking”!
If the soundboard is massive enough, the string’s mass in movement should NOT get the soundoard to “move”… “vibrate” much. While it always will ever so slightly, it takes ENERGY OUT of the string to make the soundboard vibrate! Vibration never comes “free”! That energy is substracted from the string’s sustain. Some over-tones may be atenuated by a softer less brittle/responsive soundboard material.
But there is more (and that’s the “Console-Problem” lap steel players never had (ask Jerry Byrd!): LEGS solidly attached to the unit and leading vibratioms… ENERGY… down to the floor!
Ever played on a wooden floor and “heard” your guita unplugged from the floor or felt the vibrations coming up your tuchie from your steel guitar seat? It takes ENERGY to MOVE all that hardware, energy given by a less the 1gr string plucked by a single finger… all substracted from our holly sustain!

So yes, on a modern well built PSG with oerfect fits, extrusion/billet aluminum or wood may be a difficult to petceive difference.
But the differences between a cast aluminum Frypan and a wooden console are huge and almost impossible to correct with the orevalent design.

Written on my stupid “smart”-phone, so, likely to be full of typ-o’s!

… JD.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

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Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

This entire "metal vs. wood" thing is nuts anyway.. It either sounds good or it doesn't.. I had an all wood MSA SS [smaller all maple body and neck, no aluminum frame].. that just sounded absolutely dead dark and awful I was glad to unload it as fast as I could, as cheap as possible just to be rid of it.. Then I had an ETS- a tiny featherlight guitar without so much as a gram of wood anywhere thats sound sweet warm and beautiful with long sustain, and I never should have sold it.. Had a Desert Rose all maple body and neck that sounded nasty, dull and harsh, and a Dekley that was basically made of sawdust and strong glue that was as sweet and singing as a fine old Sho bud. again, never should have sold it.. Had mica and solid maple MSA classics over the years.. some good, some horrid.. I think the build material is immaterial, either in neck or body.. A steel guitar either sounds good, or it doesn't... At this point in my life I don't think what its made from really matters much.. I used to, for decades.. Now?.. not so much....... bob
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think the real test for "is there a difference" would be if someone, anyone, could listen to a recording of a guitar and guess correctly (most all of the time) what the neck material is.

Is there someone here who thinks he can do that? Shocked

"Anyone, anyone? Buehler? Anyone?"

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Donnie, Maurice did that test with various guitars (bodies and necks). No one could distinguish one brand from the other without seeing them.
I've found that trying different pickups can usually get you where your mind is heading. Both of my MSA's (1975 and 1976) are identical in structure (maple bodies and wood necks). I bought the 1976 new that year. I've experimented with several pickups on the 76 for many years. To my ears, I'm getting very close to a push/pull tone from each guitar now. One guitar has a Telonics 427 and a little mellower than the other guitar with the Telonics X-12. Sustain unreal on both. The original Super Sustain pickup was dark. They are night (dark) and day (bright) different guitars now. I wouldn't trade either one for any guitar.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I must admit that for a long time, not knowing that Buddy Emmons recorded the Steel Guitar Jazz album in NYC in 1962, I assumed that very "metallic" sharp sound had to come from an Emmons PP plugged into a 20'000 Volt outlet. Turns out, there were no Emmonses back then and it was recorded on a ShoBud... NOT sounding "woody" as let's say Lloyd Green made them famous for.

To say that wood vs. metal is "nuts", is however quite a statement.
Why then not make them from pine or pot metal? Ah!
Bakelite guitars are still historically regarded as some of the best sounding guitars, specially the earlier ones which were of a more brittle mix and more likely to break than the models issued during and after WWII. Nuts?
No, their molecular structure was different, so much guitars with the later formula can have slight deformations from time and tension on the neck. The original ones not.
Still, no Rickenbacher B6 or B7 sounds like a Rickenbacher Frypan with the SAME pickup.

Maurice felt that a steel guitar is and instrument only WITH the amp. I know, because we had a discussion about it, when I wanted him to try one of my prototypes build on an older MSA which just unplugged "sung". HE came early and we were waiting on an amp, so he had to try it "unplugged" and while he acknowledged that it seemed to sound good, he felt he couldn't judge without it playing thru an amp. I understood, but still felt that the difference was evident even unplugged. Later Tom Brumley and John Hughey played it (sadly the last time I would see them alive).

Ask guitar players and builders... just the Telecaster crowd about Alder and Swamp Ash! And the VINTAGE of these woods and where they came from during some eras! And it's going to be a looooooong week end of endless comparisons!
Think that you build a PSG from Mahogany and it will sound like building the same guitar from HR Maple, or Alder (Fender)?

the aluminum NECK vs. wood neck discussion is different because builder changed the assembly and the type of aluminum:
While a FryPan is a one-piece CAST aluminum guitar Bigsby-style guitars were in part something like a cast aluminum one-unit-guitar supported by a wooden console, and the early Emmons were somewhat similar, most builders wound up SEPARATING both ends from the neck, the changer and the keyhead.
Bolting more metal in between the ends of the vibrating string MAY indeed have little influence and thus be little different than an added piece of wood in between. Additionally most went to easier to machine extrusion/billet material which if you were to build a "Frypan" From it, would NOT sound anywhere near like the originals... even if you swapped pickups. Don't believe it? Find yourself one of the 80's "Frypans" some builders made, most were machined and are not highly regarded, even if it says "Jerry Byrd" on them. Even JB acknowledged that something was "different"... Well yes, the molecular structure of soft, bendable billet aluminum.
Many builders from the 80's even downgraded their "aluminum"-necks to just a cap. Most famously Carter Steel Guitar. Their neck was "just" a bent polished piece of "sheet"-aluminum. It was not even intended to contribute to the sound. It had been downgraded to merely a aesthetic prop. Some Carters had a wood-"neck" under that aluminum cap. And it's not the only brand that pretty much went down that line. So most 80's and up PSG's are pretty much all "Woodies", some just with the L@@K of an aluminum PSG. Hence no real tonal difference.

What HAS however affected the tone of many PSG is the switch to also machined billet aluminum endplates away from cast aluminum, which even in All-Pulls do serve as a resting support and on some PSG's even for some pulls to stop against.
I think that this might have been the reason that even Emmons All-Pulls which in general weren't known for quality standards comparable to lets say a Franklin or Zum, still could have a decent tone... because their console hardware remained made from cast aluminum.
Klines and ZB's also had cast aluminum hardware and it was especially crucial on these guitars as they used the endplates for all pull stops, sending vibrations thru the cast aluminum endplates into the rest of the body.

I know, I mention cast aluminum often, to me, yes, it's a big deal.

Materials DO matter.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Another Zum side note:
I purchased a new Zum U-12 in 1982. Bruce experimented for a few years at that time with placing spacer fingers between the pulling fingers and anchoring the spacer fingers to the wood body of the guitar with springs. I assume to gain some tone and/or sustain from the wood body. However, some Zum players thought they could hear overtones and made it harder to tune? I couldn't hear any overtones that caused me to have a difficult time tuning the guitar. Maybe my ear is bad or those players were having hearing problems?
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

I think that the neck on a pedal steel might serve the same kind of function as bracing on a flattop guitar or tone bars in archtop instruments. Loosening screws on the neck, the material of the neck--the stuff we're talking about here can equate to scalloping bracing, using different materials for bracing etc. I think.

Basically my theory is that all of these things are affecting the stiffness, and therefore resonance, of the "soundboard" of the steel--the top. Aluminum is stiffer than wood. Loosening screws to an aluminum neck should reduce that stiffness. Scalloping braces on a guitar reduces stiffness in a strategic way.

I think that some of the thinking behind the new Sierra guitar might follow that same idea. Isolate the soundboard, manage its stiffness strategically and you will have more control over the tone. More like an acoustic instrument.

Anyway just my theory. I might be full of beans, but it seems logical to me anyway.

Dave

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I've never said that materials don't matter; I think they do. But I don't think you can make broad statements about what is good and what is bad. It depends on the guitar, and also on how the guitar is assembled. Ron Lashley once said that one screw in the wrong place, or one screw over-torqued, could ruin the sound of a guitar. That may well be true, but there again I think it depends on the guitar. I once got onto a long argument with Bobbe Seymour about cast aluminum vs. machined aluminum. (Yes, he was at times, a real "push-pull freak".) His big argument was that bells in school and church cathedrals were always cast, so guitars made from castings must sound best. But the use of castings for huge bells was due to the fact that it wasn't until fairly recently that we had large machinery to handle something that was 8 feet tall and maybe 5 or 6 feet in diameter. It was the same rigmarole when we argued about aluminum as the best "tone metal". Bells were traditionally cast or spun out of brass or bronze (even decades after aluminum was cheap and common). Casting was just the best way to make these large-but-mostly-hollow shapes. (Casting is "materially economical", very little is wasted.) But clock chimes are almost always made from drawn steel rod, and Glockenspiel bars are also steel, while wind chimes are usually aluminum and bronze, but they're almost never made from cast metal. Everything is different, everything matters, but hard-fast conclusions are often inaccurate. For bells, shape is just as important as material, and some bells can even produce multiple notes! Does this or that matter? The answer is...it depends. Circumstances aren't always the same, and neither is "what's best?". I found that out when listening to old 78's that featured acoustic guitars (like the old Stellas that Leadbelly played) that had bodies made from oak that were absolute cannons. Betcha never considered oak as a tonewood!

So play whatever you like, but understand that not everyone is going to like what you like. People have different sounds that they find appealing, just leave it at that. And for Pete's sake, STOP trying to get everyone to buy what you bought and use what you use. The bragging gets old, it really does. Personally, I don't care a fiddler's fig about what you have or what you play. I'm more concerned with how well you play it.

Peace...go play! Smile

Show me something.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

[quote="Donny Hinson"] I'm more concerned with how well you play it.

Peace...go play! Smile

I kinda lean with Donny here except for one thing I'm more concerned with how well "I" play it. Shocked

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Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

"To say that wood vs. metal is "nuts", is however quite a statement.
Why then not make them from pine or pot metal? Ah! "

Pot metal and pine just aren't strong enough structurally, not sure if tone comes into play.. Some early teles were made of pine and sound magnificent.. I bet a well made pedal steel built of pine would sound fine as well,, Until it came apart due to the softness of the wood. That would be an interesting experiment!... Pot metal has been used on bridges of guitars that sound good as well.. Even many of the "pot metal sho buds" sounded pretty good actually..

all I know is this.. I have owned steel guitars without so much of a gram of wood on them that were warm and sweet sounding, and some all wood maple body and neck steel guitars that sounded horrid, and were out the door at a big loss within days because of it..bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

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