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Topic: Double Six tunings for singer/songwriter gig… |
Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2022 7:32 pm |
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| Howdy. I have some new steel opportunities outside of my wheelhouse interest in Hawaiian/swing. I’d like to figure out the best tunings for a double six steel that’ll allow me to accompany a singer/songwriter buddy as well as a roots/country/bluesy/psych band that I play with on Sundays. I’m most familiar with A6 on my 7-string (the double six is new to me). Any suggestions would be great! Thanks. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 4:11 am
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My inclination would be to keep one of those two necks in A6...if that is your home tuning, it's where you'll be most comfortable playing more freely...and you can do all those other styles with a 6th tuning, it isn't just for Hawaiian/country/swing. Just takes some adaptation.
Then aside from that, maybe the other neck in a major triad tuning? Which one will be somewhat arbitrary, but lots of rock players lean towards something simpler that you could hit power chords on and nothing exotic under the bar like 6ths, 9ths, 7ths etc. that might muddy the waters if you were using overdrive. There's the Megan Lovell open G 1-3-5-1-3-5 tuning...if I were playing rock I think I'd want something more like 1-5-1-3-5-1...wouldn't be great for "across the strings" type soloing but that's what A6 is good for, this would give you more of a power chord sound (with optional maj 3rd) and a simple matching root on top for single note solos. Just my thoughts...I don't play that tuning, it's just what sounds useful to me in theory. Have fun with it!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 5:19 am
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A six string version of your A6, definitely. I’d use the six high strings, mainly using the 6 for relative minor chords. Keep most of the chords fairly vanilla or you will get the joking comment that “it sounds Hawaiian”. Then E on the other neck. Lo to hi EBEG#BE. Listen to classic singer-songwriters like Dylan, Prine, Browne,Lightfoot to get a clue.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 6:31 am
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I always wonder why people tell players use a specific tuning for rock.
I received the same advice and it cost me years of floundering like others.
On six strings use an 6th tuning/ 13th is even better
Learn it inside out and you can play ANY genre of music.
Do not think that two tunings is the answer.
It means you do not really know your fretboard. So trust me on this. Learn your fretboard and then apply it to whatever genre.
Example a powerchord is a root, 5th and a root but playing simply the root and 5th is enough.
Music is music. Either you know it or you don’t. It’s a language.
Hope this helps and I wish someone told me this 10 years ago. Anyway figured it out after 10 years.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 6:34 am
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PS
If you’re from a guitar background E13 makes more sense once you study it and translates extremely well.
Eg 3rd fret is G
8th fret is C etc
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 8:03 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
On six strings use an 6th tuning/ 13th is even better
Learn it inside out and you can play ANY genre of music.
Do not think that two tunings is the answer.
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I do a majority of my stuff in different genres including some jazzy stuff on a straight G tuning. But I like to have those other tunings handy for lower notes. That’s why I use D and E sometimes.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 8:16 am
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If it was me I would probably put open G on one and open D on the other. Listen to Jerry Douglas's work with Alison Krauss to see how open G can accompany a singer and listen to David Lindley for how to rock on the D tuning. Keep your seven string for your hawaiian stuff.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 9:16 am
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in addition to your D6, consider taking an extra single neck and tuning it to a big E chord for the rock blues stuff.
if you are even slightly familiar with standard guitar tuning, you can use EADGBE tuning as a guitar does and you will know where all the notes are for single melodies and you can pull the G up 1/2 step behind the bar and you will have a 7th chord. you can play a lot of rock licks using that tuning. its also good for playing in G C D.
i would not use any tuning that has a 6th chord staring at you. its too hard to stay away from it and the 6th chords will instantly propel you back 75 years and make you instantly outdated and cause folks to look at you weird.  |
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Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 9:42 am
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Thanks for the suggestions. I’d like to keep A6 on one neck so that I have a familiar ‘home base’ , though my girlfriend does say I make everything sound Hawaiian!
Would an E7 (or E13) or maybe a JB hybrid C6/A7 be a good way to go? I’m actually not sure if I can get that Jerry Byrd tuning to work on a six-string…? I’m certainly not against a straight major tuning, just looking at all the options.
And, while I agree with the idea that you can make any tuning work if you know that tuning well enough, I think that some tunings lend themselves more naturally (ergonomically?) to particular sounds/genres/songs. ‘Sand’ can arguably be played in a bunch of tunings, yet it ‘sits right’ in B11. I just don’t have a lot of experience playing steel in a non-Hawaiian/swing format, hence my original question. Thanks again for your perspectives - this forum is an invaluable source of information. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 10:01 am
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| Peter Krebs wrote: |
Would an E7 (or E13) or maybe a JB hybrid C6/A7 be a good way to go? I’m actually not sure if I can get that Jerry Byrd tuning to work on a six-string…? |
Just to answer this question in particular...sure you can play JB's C6/A7 on a six string. All of Alan Akaka's arrangements in C6/A7 (and he has quite a few of them) assume the six string tuning, basically just C6 with the sixth string sharped to C#. Works just fine!
(that said...if you have A6 on one neck, C6/A7 isn't going to cover too much new ground for you, on the other, so it wouldn't be my recommendation..but let six strings scare you away from that tuning anyway)
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 10:52 am
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Yeah, to do most blues, roots-rock, and so on, I think it's important to be able to avoid that 6th tone when you don't want it. That is a technique that needs to be mastered anyway. So I think it's reasonable to keep something like A6 = A C# E F# A C# (1 3 5 6 1 3) on one neck. But also remember that you have two different ways to get away from the 6th tonality completely with a single half-tone raise on a single string:
1. Raise F# to G for A7 = A C# E G A C# (1 3 5 b7 1 3)
2. Raise low A to A# for F#-b7#9 = A# C# E F# A C# (3 5 b7 1 #9 5) - and note that you still have A6 on the top 5 strings if you want to look at it that way. The tuning roots are just three frets apart and one can move between them easily. That's why I tend not to also raise the high A# for a full F#-b7 tuning.
Myself, I tend to like to lower that a whole tone to G6/G7/E-b7#9 for blues and roots-rock. I keep my 6-string National Silvo like that - basically a tenor-sized National steel guitar with 6 strings and a pickup instead of a biscuit resonator. I think so much blues and rock and roll is in keys like E, G, and A (which puts the 5 on the open strings with E-b7#9), coupled with the lower sonority of this, makes this works pretty well.
However, I agree with Bill that, in a blues/roots-rock context, there are times that the 6th or even a b7th is in the way, especially if you want to be able to rhythmically comp power chords like many sacred steel players do. So I think something like Open E = E B E G# B E (1 5 1 3 5 1) or the closely related and easily-retuned-to Open A = E A E A C# E (5 1 5 1 3 5) is probably a good home base for a lot of blues and blues-based rock. Or if you like a lower sonority, drop a whole tone to Open D and Open G (Robert Johnson). Power chords are right there on the bottom 3-4 strings for rhythm playing, and this mimics the types of tunings many if not most slide guitar players use. These tunings also give you a full two octaves with either the root or 5th on top and bottom. Players like David Lindley move that basic 1 5 1 3 5 1 up and down to suit quite a bit, and I find myself doing the same for some things. Lap steel or slide guitar. |
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Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 12:40 pm
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| Dave, thanks. Exactly what I was after. So, you prefer having the root in the bass as opposed to the 5th on top for A6 on a six string? Curious why you prefer one over the other? I feel like once I had that 5th on top, the tuning (A6) really popped for me (I had been playing mostly C6 with the E on top prior). |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 1:17 pm
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I think you're looking at the tuning in a weird way. Hence why you grab the 6th. A 6th tuning is really a m7.
So don't think of it as C6 think of it as Am7
m7 is not dated???
Built on a pentatonic scale Major and minor pentatonic
All blues or rock use the pentatonic so sounds more like the way you are looking at the tuning.
So don't know what blues/rock you are playing even sacred steel stuff.
likewise comping on steel has been done on 6th tunings by so many players so not sure why this Is an issue. Anyway up to you. Dobro G or E tuning makes no difference.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 2:28 pm
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I like the idea of a double 6 too. Also mainly play A6. I just love dreaming up tunings! I also am realizing at least for me, fewer strings is better. Here's what I came up with since I am a guitar player.
Front neck= low to high E-G#-B-C#(D)-E-F# High E 6/9 chord. I think this would work well for country folk etc. maybe tune the C# up to D for bluesy stuff. The 9th on top would be great for country string pulls!
back neck= A-C#-E-A-C#-E I am coming to think this is the most versatile tuning of all or the G version if you prefer a deeper voice. Or maybe D-G-D-G-B-D I use this a lot cause you can tune a standard guitar like that without changing strings,. Gives a good alt. bass |
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Bill Sinclair
From:
Waynesboro, PA, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 6:26 pm
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| What the heck, I'll throw in my favorite 6-string tuning with the rest. A-C#-E-G#-B-E low to high. Basically an A chord over an E chord. I find it works great for pop, americana, country, blues, etc. The A6 or C6 neck will be better for swing, Hank Sr. era country and even jazz but the A over E tuning covers just about everything else. Do a forum search for Amaj9 tuning to get more info. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 8:29 pm
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| Peter Krebs wrote: |
| Dave, thanks. Exactly what I was after. So, you prefer having the root in the bass as opposed to the 5th on top for A6 on a six string? Curious why you prefer one over the other? I feel like once I had that 5th on top, the tuning (A6) really popped for me (I had been playing mostly C6 with the E on top prior). |
Well - one of the reasons I strongly prefer 8-string (or at least 7-string) to 6-string A6 is that I get to have both the low A root and a string above the high 3rd (C#). But given the 6-string constraint, I find the marginal utility of the low root (which can be raised to 1# to give the minor-third-lower b7#9) to be higher for most of what I wanna do. Even if I had 7 strings, I would choose a low F# (6) over the high 5 because that gives the low root in F#-b7#9 when the A is raised to A#. I'll also say that a lot of C6 pedal steel setups, including mine, have the 2 (D) on the first string, not the 5 (G). Not saying that's gospel, but a lot of serious C6 pedal steel players eschew that 5 on top for additional melodic possibilities with the 2.
With 6 strings, I find everything a major compromise, when dealing with a 6th or 7th in the tuning, which reduces the tuning range as compared to Spanish guitar or a typical slide guitar tuning. Which is one of the reasons I think that, given a 2nd neck is available, I'd opt for going with a more typical slide guitar type of tuning - 1 5 1 3 5 1 or 5 1 5 1 3 5.
Of course, all this is a matter of taste. But for what you say you want to be doing, which is bluesy-rootsy-rock-country, I would find not at least going down to the low A root disconcerting. A major part of this is that in this kind of music, I would want to be playing rhythm - either chordally or arpeggiating them - some of the time. To my tastes, for that kind of stuff, doing this on the high strings tends to stick out like a sore thumb in many situations. I wanna be out of the way of the singer and help to propel the song from the bottom up, as I (and I think most other guitarists) would typically do on guitar. And yes, I'm a long-time guitar player that has played blues, roots-rock, and country for a long time.
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I think you're looking at the tuning in a weird way. Hence why you grab the 6th. A 6th tuning is really a m7.
So don't think of it as C6 think of it as Am7 |
Not sure who that's directed to, but we're talking about A6, which one can definitely look at as root-botttom F#m7 on the top 4 strings if you have the 5 (E) on top. Without that, it's 3rd inversion F#m7, which I think about as F#m/E (1m/b7). If one plays it like that, it's exactly a root-bottom A6. If one strums that, as in rhythm playing, it sound like A6 to me - unless someone else is holding up the bottom F# root, which is not gonna be there on a 6-string steel in A6 unless you wanna lose the 3rd (C#) on top.
Back to the original topic - of course, there are lots of ways to look at this. Maybe you can handle all the rhythm playing on a slide guitar-tuned neck, and go for the high A6 with 5 on top. It's easy enough to just put some strings on the thing and try them all out. I'm also a bit puzzled why you wouldn't bring your 7-string A6 guitar along, to free up both 6-string necks to try different stuff on. With the 7-string neck, you get to have your cake and eat it too. |
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Paul Seager
From:
Augsburg, Germany
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Posted 12 Oct 2022 11:23 pm
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Depending on the vocal range of the singers and typical keys played, I would recommend you consider A6 and B11. The top four strings are the same and the string sets are compatible.
My twin neck is 2 x 8 strings and set up for these. However, I do use both tunings on my six string acoustic and re-tune as required between songs.
My method / thinking:
A6 is great for "simpler songs", playing melodies / solos and of course the inversions are great.
B11 has far richer chords (but no easy inversions) and melodies / solos are a little trickier but certainly not impossible.
These things are always trial and error but keep in mind most 6 string tunings use an E on top so whether you use C6 (with a 3rd on top) or A6 (5th on top) you have a great many tunings available to you with very little adjustment.
I had some great advice from Mikiya Matsuda (paraphrasing): There is not enough years in my life to learn all the tunings so just treat each one as a little gift to get through a certain song!
\ paul |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2022 12:51 am
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Here's an idea based on string gauges.
Have one neck set up with a string set for your A6; this set of strings can also be tuned to a number of tunings including C6, C6+A7, the BDEG#BE E7, the BDEG#C#E variation, B11, etc.
Have the other neck set up with a set of string for the open A low bass tuning. EAEAC#E, the oldest steel tuning, and can be tuned to open E, the EBEG#C#E C#m7 (E6) tuning, the EBDG#BE E7, the F#A#EG#C#E F#9, etc.
I don't have a double 6, but this is how I tune 2 individual 6 string lap steels, so I can use almost any tuning I need without restringing the low strings.
Last edited by David M Brown on 15 Oct 2022 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 13 Oct 2022 6:06 pm
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I'll ask the silly, unimportant question...what's the double six in question? Just curious. Doesn't affect anything relevant to tuning or style, just like cool console guitars!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2022 8:56 pm
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| Hey Nic. I picked up a late 40’s Rick double six off Reverb recently. I’ve been looking for a Rick double eight for awhile, but haven’t been able to locate the model I was after. Rusty Blake plays with me a lot and he has a fantastic DW16 that I love the sound of, so I came up with a convincing excuse to buy another steel! I received it today and the jury is still out as to whether I’ll keep it. Pete |
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