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Topic: West Coast steel sound on MSA? |
Billy Wilson
From:
El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 24 May 2006 11:58 am |
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| I have the Bill Lawrence pickup (the kind with 2 rows of magnets) on the E9th neck of my MSA. It has a great silky warm kind of sound to it. If I wanted to get a more "Brumleyish" or "Mooneyish" what I call "bare wire" kind of sound is there a pick up out there that would work better for that sound? I mean with out having to go out and buy a Fender or a ZB. |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 24 May 2006 1:05 pm
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Your pickup is a humbucker. Brumley/Mooney tone
from years ago used a single coil pickup. You
might look into a Jerry Wallace pickup that's wound to around 17K to 18K. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 May 2006 3:28 pm
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14k might be even better! 
So...what kind of amp are you using, and how do you have it set? A certain guitar or pickup, alone, will not give you a "west-coast sound", IMHO. It's more a combination of technique and amp settings. Using a hollow bar will help, too! |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 May 2006 3:39 pm
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What model MSA? There have been many different ones thru the years, with very different sounds.
The videos at http://joeyace.com/moon.htm
show Al Brisco playing this style on two different guitars.
The Fender has the classic sound, due to the single coil pickup and it's construction. He gets real close on the Carter, which is using an XR-16 humbucking pickup and great right hand technique. A standard BJS Bar is used on both clips. [This message was edited by Joey Ace on 25 May 2006 at 04:50 PM.] |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 25 May 2006 3:40 pm
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| Bingo Donny! Now I ABSOLUTELY know, that you know whats happening. I'm impressed Donny. The hollow bar is the secret ingrediant. |
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autry andress
From:
Plano, Tx.
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Posted 25 May 2006 4:26 pm
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Didn't Ralph have a special wound pick up
wound to his liking back in the Sho-Bud days? Maybe some one has more info on this.
I didn't know about the hollow-bar. Thanks
Donny. |
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Billy Wilson
From:
El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 25 May 2006 5:02 pm
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| It's a D12 that started out as a D10. I don't know the model. I play through and old Nashville 400. What settings would you guys suggest for the West Coast sound? |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 31 May 2006 5:05 pm
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I disagree with my friends here... 17 K is too heavy a wind for the Fender/ ZB tone... I nail it pretty good on an 8 K pickup... I would not go more than 12 K on a single coil for a Mooney type tone... Moons original Fender pickups were around 8 K...
I was also told he had his Bud pickups wound to Fender specs when he started using Buds,,, I am NOT sure this is accurate but that is what I have been told...
I would call Jerry Wallace, tell him the tone you seek, and he'll set you up... Yes you can use a good MSA for the west coast sound... I did for many years, and was happy with the sound I got after I ditched the original pickups....bob |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 31 May 2006 8:43 pm
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I'll second Bob on the pickup thing. Jerry Wallace seems to be on the same train of thought. If you want Fender tone, go for 8-9k rewound pickups.
Which makes me curious - who started the extremes in pickup impedance for steels? My MSA sounded awful without a matching device; guitar pickups rarely exceed 8k or so. But 18-20k steel pickups just seem to sound really "squeezed" and muddy unless run through something to "fix" them, hence the Matchbox and its relatives. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 3:03 am
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| We are of a like mind on the pickup thing as usual Jim... I also find I am badly overdriving my tube amps with "hot" steel pickups..Those 18-20 K pickups are fine for SS steel amps that don't distort and will give you that big full massive tone and sustain that most modern steel players prefer,but it ain't my bag...I'll take that bright glassy west coast sound anyday... bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Jun 2006 7:36 am
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| Quote: |
| Moons original Fender pickups were around 8 K... |
But those were 8 string pickups!
| Quote: |
| guitar pickups rarely exceed 8k or so. |
But those are 6 string pickups!
You have to remember that bigger pickups use more wire. For a 10-string pickup, I wouldn't recommend going under 11k, and 14k even seems a good compromise between highs and output. Higher impedances (more wire) reduce the highs, but they also increase lows and output. Some amps will distort with high output pickups, so you have to adjust your volume pedal (especially if it's powered), or volume pedal technique accordingly.
All that said, with the right bar, the right technique, and the right amp and amp settings, you can get that "west-coast sound" out of most pickups. If all it took were a Fender pedal steel and a low impedance pickup, then Speedy West would have sounded just like Ralph Mooney, and we know such is not the case. |
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Peter
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 3:46 am
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Billy, can you bypass one of the humbucking coils of the Bill Lawrence pick up?
That might give you a single coil sound.
------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
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Franklin
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 5:05 am
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Why not keep the pickup? Mooney could sit down to your guitar as it is and get his sound.
Try picking as close to the pickup as possible, without picking on top of it, and with a fairly hard attack. That should accomplish the same as changing pickups to lesser ohms.
Paul |
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Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 5:21 am
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I don't know what Mooney has in hs GFI, but when I asked him what he thought about it he said "Oh yeah,It's Me". I assumed he meant the tone and feel, he got it in Dallas for sure. And I think Paul is correct, he seems to get whatever sound he needs out of his Franklin.
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Howard |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 2:10 pm
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Well Billy, I'm with Bob C on this.
I had JW wind a couple special ordered small magnet, staggered pole SCs at 16k. They're a lot clearer than the stock 20+ers.
When using the very same channel on my Podxt that I do my 5.6 ohm single coil G&L teletype, they sound about the same.
If I replace my JWs in the future, it'll be with 14ks at the most.
Danny Shields wound me an E9 SC in the 80s that was WAY physically thinner than the standard overwound single coils of today, and it sounded GREAT. It deteriorated over the years,shorting out finally, and I never saved it. He was toying with a clearer sound he said was like the old Ricks. I never asked the ohmage. I just played it til it wore out. Then Danny died around the same time..
I don't know about going for a particular players' "sound", but unless you're hurting for money it isn't going to hurt you to try a clearer sounding PU. Mind the hum inherent in SCs though, and don't throw the Lawrence away.
It's your guitar, you can fool around with it any way you want to.
EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 June 2006 at 06:55 PM.] |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 2:48 pm
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Donny - I should have clarified things in my post that you mentiond - that more poles=more wire-=higher impedance.
But NOT 22k. A 10-string pickup at 11k or so would seem to b somewhat akin to an 8 string at 8.5k, and a 6 string at 7k. And it can and does have a huge affect on the tone. Sure, you can squeze your hand back right on top of the pickup and change the tone, but you compromise a bunch of other things.
I'd rather have the pickup where I want it to start with.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 04 June 2006 at 08:37 AM.] |
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Billy Wilson
From:
El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 10:48 pm
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| I tried a little tweaking tonight on the MSA at the gig and it worked just fine. I am able to get that high end sizzle that I was looking for with a little bit of EQing on the NV400 with little bit of close to bridge picking. There is a bit of distortion in the treble that is required to give you "that sound" without a full on Grand Funk Railroad fuzz tone thing happening. Thanks so much for all the suggestions my good fellows. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Jun 2006 10:50 pm
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Pulling that Nvl400 "Bright" knob really gives you an edge. Peaveys boost/cut EQ is really nice for that.
EJL |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2006 7:41 am
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Paul's right if you want to do it on a song. But if you want your MSA to permanently get a "Fenderish" sound a pickup rewind is definitely the most signifcant and effective thing to do. Bob Carlucci has already proved what pickup impedance changes do o guitar tone via sound samples posted a few months ago.
Besides - Paul's method dies a quick death if you want to get that sound *without* a hard attack. Mellow out your picking and the tone is toast. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2006 8:09 am
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Steve told you right...
EJL |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Jun 2006 8:30 am
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If you don't have Mooney's technique, you're spitting in the wind. You can get your pickup rewound to anything you want, you can get a dozen Fender steels, and it still ain't gonna happen. If you don't think how Ralph thinks, if you don't have that sound in your head, if you don't understand what's really going on, you're just wasting time and money. 'Course, it is your time and money. 
Oh sure, I've heard a lotta guys in my day with Fender steels, Fender pickups, Fender tube amps, too. They thought they had it nailed. Man, they thought they were Mooney to a "T". After all, they had bought all the right stuff, hadn't they? (LOL!)
You guys kill me, you really do.
So, I think I'll go play my Emmons push/pull. After all, I've got the same pickups he used, the same bar, the same picks, and I've even got the same amp! Shucks, I'll sound so much like Buddy, neither Leon Rhodes nor the Everly Brothers will be able to tell us apart!!!
Yup. If you got the gear, you got the sound, right?
(See what I mean?.)
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2006 8:37 am
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Donny told you right...
EJL |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2006 8:45 am
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He didn't say he wanted to sound like Mooney - he said he wanted a "Mooneyish" or "Brumleyish" sound, and what kind of PICKUP would do it. Lump those sounds he mentioned together and the closest thing is a Fender sound, which is what I told him how to approximate, via pickup rewinding o replacement...which was his whole point.
He wasn't talking about playing style - just "approximate" tone. Read the first post again guys. Paul didn't address the question (he missed the point IMO - Billy wants to get a "west coast" sound, not specifically sound like Ralph Mooney), and Steve and Donny followed Paul into off-topic land. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jun 2006 9:06 am
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I think it might do anybody well to actually READ the ORIGINAL POST.
quote:
..what I call "BARE WIRE" kind of sound is there a PICK UP OUT THERE THAT WOULD WORK BETTER FOR THAT SOUND?
I mean with out having to go out and buy a Fender or a ZB. -Billy Wilson-
I for one, answered yes.
I suppose that a guy especially could get a thinner sound through any number of methods or amp settings, but I didn't read a question to that effect.
Well who ever it is that told you right, told you right.
I'm glad it worked out for you. That's the important thing.
I'm not sure my guitar could ever get it to sound Like the Original..
EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 04 June 2006 at 10:52 AM.] |
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