Tuning and compensators

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I see the distinction now, Larry. Thanks.

Good links, Eric. I ran into this quote by Bobby:

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The Wikipedia link was pretty good. Thanks, Duane. I'll quote a piece of it here:

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

the two things that jumped out to me are:

"However, just intonation provides the advantage of being entirely in tune, with at least some, and possibly a great deal, loss of ease in modulation."

"Twelve tone equal temperament (12-TET) is the standard and most usual tuning system used in Western music today because it gives the advantage of modulation to any key without dramatically going out of tune, as all keys are equally and slightly out of tune."

i read that as stating that "just intonation" can only be in tune some of the time, and the rest it's way out of tune; "equal temperament", on the other hand, may not be precisely in tne but is far more practical - which is why it seems to be called "the standard" in every source given.

I'd rather be able to play with other people and not have to stay in the key of G all night, myself.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

"I'd rather be able to play with other people and not have to stay in the key of G all night, myself."

Or, you could do what most pedal steelers do and find some kind of very minor "tweak" of the thirds that is a mid-point compromise between ET and JI. A compromise that is close enough to JI to get that sweeter-than-ET-thirds sound -- but close enough to ET be able to play in all keys, all chords without anyone thinking it 'out of tune.'

Or, you could tune any way you like and put compensators on your guitar have that sweeter-than-ET sound coming from your thirds and still have the other strings come out straight-up ET.

Whew! We finally made it all the way around the block.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Actually, you're wrong, Jim. The pedal steel is unrestricted in modulation because of the movable bar. This allows us to play perfectly tuned chords in any key. Only the open strings are limited in terms of modulation.

For example, the popular A+F position produces a C# major chord that is very flat on the open strings. With the bar, we "aim high" of the printed fret guideline to get a perfectly tuned major triad in any key. It's only out of tune at the nut, and we never play it there.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 May 2006 at 11:54 AM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Yes sir.

Up has become Down, In has turned into Out, Black to White, Yin to Yang..

All by Incriments.

Hope you've been saved a few thousand words Jim.

For my part, it has been interesting, and I've learned a lot I suppose..

Jim, one of the most striking differences I've seen between participating players here are those that have trained their ears to expect non naturally occuring intervals, and those that haven't.

In my case, accidentally, from tens of years of not knowing any better.

Had I to do over again, knowing how many screwed up ways pedal steel players try to tune their "beats out" and play them against instruments that don't, I like to think I'd have chosen the same path.

(I do think I'd have flossed more between gigs though..)

I think the side that claims the "majority" is indeed correct.

In the end though, they are ruled by Twelve Notes. A distinct minority in the aural spectrum.

Some seem to like it better than others.

Wikipedia? The Modern Rock of Absolution..

Right(noun, verb, adjective) (R-i-t) def: Wrong defined through a series of Incriments..

Anyhow, it's just another of the wonderful exchanges of ideas that b0b has wittingly or otherwise provided for Our Craft, to his great credit, and our great benefit.

Seriously

EJL

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

You know, it just occurred to me: if you tune the beats out, and you play against people who don't, the result is beats in the harmonies. If you tune straight up, the result is beats in the harmonies.

I don't really use just intonation. I still have some beating in my harmonies, but it's not as fast as in equal temperament. I do this for reasons of practicality, not because one method sounds better than the other. Thirds that are flat of just intonation sound pretty bad. I play outdoors a lot. A cool breeze or a passing cloud can knock things around by a few cents. I don't want that to make me sound out of tune, so I sort of split the difference between ET and JI. I'm never as in tune as JI or as out of tune as ET.

It's just splitting hairs. I'm in the ball park most of the time.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

John Walden · From: Simi Valley, California, USA

Before this thread goes south, I would like to know if any type of compensators
will stiffen-up your pedals ? I've got
an Emmons D-10 with the anti detune devise on the E-9. And it would seem that this does effect the stiffness of the pedals. Your thoughts are appreciated.
J. W.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

J.W. - You may have just added a third type of "compensator" to the discussion..

John Walden · From: Simi Valley, California, USA

I really didn't think of that. What I do think about is how great a place this is to access knowledge and info.
I hope that the personality thing that comes through on the computer, from fellow forumites, is a good thing. A big thank you to B0B for his efforts. You see I am thinking about ordering a new SD-10. and I want some major improvement on pedal stiffness. So all this talk about compensators is very helpful. Thanks guys. I too have a very fine ear, thank God. And hopefully I can be a good player someday.
Peace-out,
J. W.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The F# tuning compensators typically go to the bell crank slot closest to the crossbar. The force required for this very small pull is distributed through the full length of the longer A or B pedal pull.

Yes, it adds a little bit of extra resistance to the pedal. Some people put the 1st string compensator on one pedal, and the 7th string on the other another to spread the resistance further. I don't think there's any consensus about which goes where.

Myself, I do it backwards from most people. I tune my 7th string F# to be in tune with the pedaled C#, and pull it up to be in tune with the B string on the lever that lowers my E's. I don't remember why I started doing it that way, but it's always worked well for me.

I don't compensate my high F#. Again, I can't explain why except to say that tuning it to the center of the meter sounds okay to me in the positions I play. It never bothered me like the 7th string does.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Duane Reese · Posted 20 May 2006 5:46 pm

quote:
Or, you could do what most pedal steelers do and find some kind of very minor "tweak" of the thirds that is a mid-point compromise between ET and JI. A compromise that is close enough to JI to get that sweeter-than-ET-thirds sound -- but close enough to ET be able to play in all keys, all chords without anyone thinking it 'out of tune.'

Or, you could tune any way you like and put compensators on your guitar have that sweeter-than-ET sound coming from your thirds and still have the other strings come out straight-up ET.

Man, Tucker you are right on the money - that's just what I was trying to say, and I emphasize that regarding the second paragraph. That's the whole point - Jim, you can try out any temperment you prefer, but now that you know what the deal is with temper tuning, just please understand that conpensators aren't a lame fix for a mechanical design flaw - heck, maybe even try out a guitar with them - you may be sold!

By the way: call up and ask any good pro piano tuner and they'll tell you some things about tempering that will leave you curled up in a ball on the ground, sucking your thumb! (not really but they temper those things in ways that would blow all of our minds probably)

ebb · From: nj

it must get very complicated with splits on compensated changes

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Duane, I know piano tuners. and they don't add gadgets to adjust strings when "bending" notes, since that doesn't occur on a piano. And, as you may have read, ET is the closest thing to piano tuning, and also used by the majority of musicians. Again - it's the steelers in the minority who use the added-gadget approach to engineering fixs rather than redesign.

b0b - "Actually, you're wrong, Jim. The pedal steel is unrestricted in modulation because of the movable bar. This allows us to play perfectly tuned chords in any key."

Actually, you're wrong. You are completely restricted in modulation. Hold your bar in ONE place and play a chord. Unless your bar is sectioned off to vary the distance to the bridge to fit the chord you are playing in JI, you either are stuck with a compensator...and hopefully one useful for the chord you're playing...or you have a very out of tune guitar on some chords. that same lack of modulation in ET gives you a *slightly* out of tune guitar on ALL chords.

I'd rather be able to play varied music with other instruments, and without relying on an overcomplicated instrument. And, with every added piece the cost goes up as well.

I can see why some makers love JI - they sell more stuff, albeit to fewer people.

I can see why other makers love ET - simplicity in design and a bigger market.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Any steel guitar can be tuned either way, or in between. It's all personal preference. It has nothing to do with marketing steel guitars.

Jim, you seem to think that JI sounds out of tune played against ET. It doesn't. The difference is very small. ET puts a little shimmering sound in your chords, that's all.

You can listen to the differences between the two systems on this page. Neither sounds out of tune to me - they just sound a little bit different. It's easy to hear that, if they were played on instruments wth different timbres, they would sound in tune with each other.

You're just splitting hairs. If you like equal temperament - use it! I've used it in the past, but I find it easier to play in tune with a band if my guitar sounds in tune with itself. Most experienced steel guitarists agree on this. A minority of steelers insist on ET for reasons similar to yours. They trust their tuners and their eyes more than their ears, I think. Some use ET for other reasons, like complex, hard to balance copedents.

The only time I've had a complaint about my tuning in recent memory was when I played a C6th neck tuned to equal temperament in a recording session. Other tracks on the E9th neck in the same session were fine - using my normal compromise temperament. A lesson learned!

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Jim, do you know of any manufacturers that actually charge more a guitar with tuning compensators? I mean, they're just regular pulls - a rod and a bell crank. It's not like they use any uniquely machined parts or anything. No builder has ever charged me extra for pulling my F# string just a little bit.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"It still doesn't seem to sink in that it is possible to train ones' ears to hear notes in a Equal Temperment. IMHO, it is mandatory if you are ever going to try and play that way with others."

ET playing IS an ear-related thing. Eric has been on the dime all along.

It's really interesting how cloistered the steel world is sometimes. ET is the way to go for the majority of musicians on any instrument, as proven even by the JI-group's sources. But the steel world somehow got locked into doing something "different", likely because one or two major players did it for a while and the "me toos" jumped on the bandwagon. Interesting also that one of those players (BE) now apparently has returned to ET. Wonder if he has/had compensators on HIS guitars?

Even with compensators, you're going to be horribly out of tune in some key...or two, or three. You can't mechanically adjust "on the fly" for every key. Players at Paul Franklin's level can work around it....but that's a VERY small group of players.

I'd be surprised if manufacturer's aren't adding to the price somewhere for more parts. It'd be awfully stupid to install extras of anything for free. If b0b isn't seeing the price adjusted, it's being built into the base price of everything - that's business.

But more significant to me is the return-to-pitch type of compensator, where the string can't be relyed on to return to pitch after being raised or lowered.

There have been a few posts regarding guitars where that does not happen, and I've gotten a few emails saying the same thing. It seems obvious *those* guitars are mechanically sound and well-engineered, while anything that can't accomplish that feat is not. Simply, if SOME builders don't have the problem, the ones that do are doing something wrong, either in design of construction.

I'd still like to...as would several other posters over several threads now...see what a mass of these compensators (or even one) looks like.

If I was a manufacturer installing compensators, I'd get hold of a guitar that doesn't need them as fast as I possibly could, figure out what's different, and change my design or methods right away; because otherwise I'm offering a "compromised" product - and there are people making better guitars than mine!

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 May 2006 at 06:42 AM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

My name is John, and I'm all messed up on tuning. This does rehash the age old arguments. I am experimenting with all kinds of tunings and trying to find something that works.

a) Assuming that "beatless" means you can't have everything:

When that JI/tweaked 3rd note in a chord no longer functions as the 3rd of the chord, isn't it just plain flat?
Doesn't the JI/tweaked tuning, especially on a complex C6th setup, present a tuning that works beautifully for the triads they are tweaked to but makes less usual combinations quite "out of tune"?

If a piano can play any combination of notes and no one complains about intonation, isn't there a way to tune a pedal steel that will allow for the freedom to choose voicings in 4ths and other "pianistic" voicings that sound in tune across the board, without 'fudging' (that term gives me the willies- you can't fudge the middle note in a three note voicing with a bar unless you are taking psychedelics and/or bend behind the bar...)

b) If Randy Beavers, Doug Jernigan, John Hughey, Paul Franklin etc. all use some form of tweaked/JI tuning, isn't there something to it that should be SERIOUSLY considered, regardless of the fact that ET should make life so much easier for everybody?

Buddy Emmons never sounds out of tune to me, neither do the above guys...

b) I would "shut up and play" but my conscience won't let me. Do you hear the voices too?

c) Who's buying the next round?

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

John,

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Jim, I've heard all kinds of guitars, and I've come to believe that the people that manufacture the new ones have their own ideas and indeed don't long abide poor design or manufacture. Especially the ones that are represented by the manufacturers that post here.

I had the best luck with my Sho Bud PIII in this respect until the fingers wore grooves in them and became out of round from my filing them out over a 24 year period. Other fittings wore similarly, but seeing as how I paid for it the first couple months I was out playing it in the late 70s I was fine with it.

My current Marrs has a changer designed by Duane Marrs, who worked for Sho~Bud for many many years, and his design seems to work perfectly. Incidentally, the older SBs had adjustable pull return springs like a lot of guitars, and sometimes putting a higher or lower tension string can throw off return.

There IS a mechanism that I can see having a place in changers. It is like the old Harley Davidson "Mousetrap", that engages a helper spring shortly after activation and deactivates it when fully released through an eccentric spring fulcrum setup. I took a while to learn to adjust mine on my '63FLH,a dn found out why they called them "mousetraps".

Additionally any guitar with multiple raises and lowers can have "compensators" attached. I could do it with my Marrs. I suppose I could be shown the need, but as yet I haven't.

I'll leave it to the manufacturers to figure out what options they want to include on their guitars. They will of course abide my choice of the ones I use.

Franklin, Emmons. MSA and other guitars are certainly fine guitars, and I think the areas or mechanisms in them that I am not familiar with would make sense to me if I saw or tried them.

Well John, that probably the biggest reason I have gotten upset about this "Tunin Question". A new player has more than enough to worry about with setup technique and in general learning their way around the instrument without a nearly impossible prospect of "tuning specific beats out of specific chords.

You're right, a chord that has notes that are flat in it is a flat chord, or more accurately a partial minor whether "centered" over a stack of non dicked with chords from other instruments or not. You'll also note that tuned "straight up" a third that has many beats per second, when it has a fifth added to it played just as strongly as well as a root loses it's dissonance "miraculously". Especially at stage volume.

If it's hard to play some of those intervals in your practice space, by all means tweak them. If you find a way to do it where other chords or single note runs you play don't clash too badly.

Mainly, I hope you aren't too dissuaded by the hair splitters. I don't think they mean to do what they are doing to the "new guys". Especially when insults and insinuations start flying.

Charlie.

I think you might be right, and it stuck in my head that the Fischer Method my dad used called for counting beats in the fifths, and from what I remember, other intervals, and the many times I had my head pressed up against one of the pianos he tuned kind of ingrained it in me what a nice full flowering "major chord" should sound like. I didn't even know who Pythagoris was..

Bandstand playing over the last 26 or so years put a lot of things to the test.

Last night for instance at a local large club my favorite guitar player here locally, a young guy named Monty Moss has put a new set of strings on. The song, a slow Vince Gill song, "Whenever you come around" required us to play unison full chords, and some of his notes were obviously flat. Because we'd played together for a number of years, I instinctively omitted the notes I heard clash, and used more moving octaves, and sus4s. He did similarly. On one song, I realised I had hit my low B on the E9 with my hand, and bent the octave til it sounded in unison until I could momentarily shut off my VP and tweak it. All "on the fly" and with very slight notice of any of the audience.

I made my three bills for three nights, and I'm penciled in for future stuff if I ever have time.

Actually I have found something I am going to change on my Marrs WRT "mechanical throw". I am very hard on the pedals and stops. The nylon cushions that are under the pedal rod arms on the A and B pedals are free floating and have work ever so slightly a groove in one position that they randomly find knocking the tuning off a cent or two once in a while. I am replacing them with small brass washers. Also as I relayed to Duane and Jeff the finger clamps, I have put green loctite under to avoid having to clamp them down as hard as I otherewise would. That stuff is like "liquid braze" and if anybody else tries it for any reason I warn NOT to get it on any threads or they will not move in the future.

There are certainly enough ways to discuss differences without insults, insinuations, reminding people how important you are, or counting on others to do it for you.

I'm glad to see a few more of them employed.

It gives me a sort of Je Ne Se Qua...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 21 May 2006 at 12:26 PM.]

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Please guys,just tune those damn things and PLAY,your giving me a headache.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Last year, Paul Franklin gave a pretty good synopsis of why he tunes the way he does. I do know that there are a couple of famous players out there whose tuning (or playing?) grates on my nerves...just too many beats.

A portion of Paul's comments are as follows...

quote:
When I listen to Emmon's Black album or anything by Jay Dee, Reece, Green, Hughey, Jernigan, Rugg, and pretty much every steel guitarist on every major recording since country has been around, I can hear why JI blends well with the band and in all these cases the steels are in tune with their surrounding instruments.

The ET method is rarely found on major records. I believe the reason is because the rules for orchestral arranging applies to all instruments for sounding in tune with a band.

Since the human ear has to be trained to accept the sound of the ET sharp thirds beating feverishly in its major triads, and the steel sits on the surface of the band track, as does vocals and strings, and because ALL of those musical/orchestral parts are performed as JI, it then becomes more important that the steel should be tuned to fit its sonic place in the band.

Most producers I know will not accept ET as sounding in tune and will ask us check our tuning when we present them an ET tuned triad. I know this because I have tried this in the studio.

Percussive instruments like the piano and guitar blend together sonically. Because the steel is more bell like with its intial attack, it does not blend with the percussive attack of those instruments the same way the voice, violins, and other non- percussive instruments don't blend with rhythm section instruments. This is why something closer to JI has been and still is the standard way a steel guitar is tuned for recordings.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"When I listen to Emmon's Black album or anything by Jay Dee, Reece, Green, Hughey, Jernigan, Rugg, and pretty much every steel guitarist on every major recording since country has been around, I can hear why JI blends well with the band and in all these cases the steels are in tune with their surrounding instruments."

But - Regardless of what it says on the Emmons guitar website, doesn't Buddy tune using ET?

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