Tuning and compensators

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I'm reposting this because it was exactly on topic in the previous thread, discussing compensators, why and how they work, and why and how they don't. Tuning seems to be a salient issue, and tuning to other instruments a posed question unanswered by the compensator folks. I don' know what a "Paul Franklin" search has to do with it.

So:

b0b' statement - "There are two different 9th tones in the JI scale. Tuning compensators are ganged to the common pedals to automatically switch to the right tone."

Then the "right" one is going to be out of tune with any instrument with fixed tuning. because your "right" tone isn't anyone else's.

My take - if you need a compensator to tune to a piano, then your original note or your new one was not in tune with it. There's not compensation on a piano..or a trumpet, or Hammond B3. Ever seen a compensator on a set of vibes?

Back to two issues - the compensator that adjust the non-pedaled (or levered) strings is there to adjust for out-of-tune notes on the instrument - or to make them match newly out-of-tune notes. If so, something is wrong with the instrument.

The compensator used to return a note to the place it started from is making up for an obvious, serious defect in an instrument. Again, I've bent strings for 30 years and NEVER has this problem been apparent except in the steel guitar world.

Either some folks are overthinking uneccessary mechanics, or they're making instruments that don't work right to start with. Man, I must have been awfully lucky with every brand of string I've ver used, because they all seem to return to pitch just fine - whether bent by Parsons-White, Higgins, Hipshot, Glaser (going up) or Keith/Scruggs, Hipshot, Sperzel or Schaller (going down).

As I said, I have not been involved with the whole tuning debate here, having been through it on guitar forums before. But from a practical standpoint, "needles up" seems to work for 99.9% of the players on the planet. If some steel people think differently, somebody started that issue somewhere and sucked some others right into the maelstrom with them.

The only way the other system works is to make an instrument in tune with only itself. It will be out-of-tune with all the other maladjusted instruments on the planet, none of which use this gadgetry.

I don't know what the "hornet's nest" thought is. If you tune to other instruments, you aren't going to need to play with "compensators"...they don't. You WILL be out of tune, unless you're REALLY good at manual adjustments of bar positions, slants, and partial pedal/lever movements. I'm sure wiht Paul's experience he could play with or without compensators and blow just about everyone else off the planet...and sound in tune.

But I return to the PT Barnum statement as far as MOST players go.

And I'm still sorry 'bout Santa.

;-)

PS - missed John Jaffe's note. If you look at b0b's list of tunings, I use the updated (recently) version of Sneaky Pete's B6...except I tune string 9 to a D# instead of F#, as it fits some particular rock licks I used to play on guitar better. Left the pedal changes on that string alone, as I don't really use them, and I never play that string in chords. I'm pretty much a theory idiot and complete ear player (another reason tuning...especially in close proximity with other instruments...is so critical for me), so those changes lost me anyway.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The topic was "What compensators does Paul Franklin have on his guitars?" When it diverged too far from that, I closed it.

Jim, you seem to be under the impression that most popular music is played in equal temperament, and that anyone who doesn't tune to equal temperament will sound out of tune. Yet people are happy to hire Paul Franklin and Lloyd Green to play their "out of tune" pedal steels on their CDs. I've never heard either of them play an out of tune note.

How do you explain that?

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Bobby Lee
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I stated it above:

"You WILL be out of tune, unless you're REALLY good at manual adjustments of bar positions, slants, and partial pedal/lever movements. I'm sure with Paul's experience he could play with or without compensators and blow just about everyone else off the planet...and sound in tune."

I've heard more of Paul's playing than Lloyd's due to his Dire Straits stint, and Paul doesn't sound out of tune to me ever. The only stuff of Lloyd's I've heard is what he played with the Byrds. I don' know whether or not he used compensators or not in those days - but it's always sounded out of tune to me. Great stuff, but enough off to be noticable.

And most music IS played in equal temperament. Find me compensators on other normal studio or live instruments, b0b. Sorry, but we sit there with our TU-12's or strobes and set 'em dead on unless there's a screwed up "real" piano being used.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I'm surprised by things both of you (Jim and b0b) said.
Jim: Lloyd sounding out of tune?! I admit I haven't listened to "Sweetheart Of the Rodeo" lately, and I was never sure which cuts were Lloyd and which were JayDee, but LLoyd's work with Johnny Paycheck, Ricky Skaggs, Don Williams, Charlie Pride, etc., and on his own albums, has always struck me as the epitome of in tune playing, in addition to the epitome of taste and feeling.
b0b: As you expressed the same feeling about Lloyd, isn't it true that he accomplished that without the use of compensators?

Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

I played with an acordian player one time and it was the only instrument I have ever had a problem with. For some reason it made the whole band sound out of tune, it was like some of the old do whap and old blues with the out of tune horn sections. Besides that I never had a problem with tuning with any other instruments. I have had to compensate by bar position (flat or sharp) only.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Brint, that's the only stuff I've heard. I don't listen to or play country.

I don't know whether he used compensaors or not (having never even heard of the things until the last couple days)...but I just played "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" again and it's just enough out to give me the willies. Has for years.

And no matter how I look at it, either type of compensator is making up for an instrument deficiency. Whether it's really *necessary* or not is a whole different issue - to me it seems, like the Buzz Feiten tuning system, all smoke and mirrors....or like Eric Johnson's stompbox positions in relationship to the plane of the ecliptic. but if strings don't return to their original tuning, there's a mechanical issue that needs to be fixed or redesigned. And it must be (actually BOTH compensator needs must be) somehow inherent to the similarities in design of pedal steel changers or other mechanics, because as mentioned before I've never seen it in any B or G benders I've owned or set up. And that's a lot of guitars...

Seems like just too much thinking, not enough playing....for most people.

And boy, they'd probably look dumb on my aged cable-pull Fenders anyway.

Then again - what DO they look like????

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I must say in Jim's defense, as he seems to be fighting a lonely battle (metaphorically speaking) against overwhelming opposition, that it's unarguable that no other instrument is intentionally tuned to other than equal temperament. I, too, have played guitar for forty (forty-two) years, and since the advent of affordable and convenient electronic tuners, I and every other guitar player I have ever encountered tune all strings "to 440", and carefully intonate our bridges to cause all fretted notes to likewise be "tuned to 440" or as close as possible.
That said, I employ my personal version of "tempered" tuning (I know it's a misnomer) on my steel (I've played steel for 23 years), and one thing I hear consistently from people I play with is that I play in tune (which they apparently feel isn't always true of steel players!). Music is mysterious; while it can be analyzed mathematically, it's not math!

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Jim, another note: the whole hysteresis issue is about strings that are lowered returning sharp. I've used a Hipshot "D-tuner" on the low E string of my main guitar for many years, and I always tune the string using the procedure that Hipshot explains in the instructions you get with the D-tuner, which address the problem of hysteresis with that unit. They tell you to tune the string, using the tuning peg, lower than you want, then activate the lower and bring it back up, the result being that it will return higher than you tuned it, and keep doing this until the pitch you get upon returning from the lower is up to "440". I think David Borisoff (Hipshot) would agree that this procedure is necessary because of the inherent physics of the situation, rather than a defect in his mechanism.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Jim,
Your assumtions about how pianos, organs and whatever else tune are incorrect. All notes are not tuned straight up to 440 on most instruments. Before you start typing again go check a piano in every register.
Guitars are the exception and tune to 440 because they are a deeply flawed instrument and its really the best they can do.

I have had dozens of guitar players as steel students that had no idea that you can tune 3rds with harmonics and then play perfectly in tune with anybody once you get your ears together.

The practice of tuning compensators (mostly for the 1st and 7th string E9 )was developed by the greatest players that have ever lived because they made there living in studios where having perfect intonation is critical. I would investigate why someone like Buddy Charleton would find tuning compensators useful. Try the Jeff Newman tuning chart and learn how it applies to the practical applications of people that make playing the pedal steel there life's work. I personally don't use tuning compensators at the moment but I do understand why many players do.

As far as the whole hysteresis issue goes Brint has a good perspective in his last reply.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
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Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I don't usually tune six string guitars to plain old 440. I tune to a tuner and then usually make slight adjustments to make sure that all chord forms sound in tune. Pianos are tempered I think. Autoharp?

"You can please all of the chords some of the time, you can please some of the chords all of the time, but you can't please all of the chords all of the time"
I think Abraham Lincoln said that

Regarding Lloyd Green with the Byrds. Lloyd probably plays something imperfect now and again. However, I think it's The Byrds that are out of tune on that album, not Lloyd. I don't really care though. I love that album anyways.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Brint - I've used Keith or Schaller D tuners for years with never a word from either manufacturer about hysteresis and nary a problem once a string is stretched a bit and "broken in". The Hipshot D tuner is a much more loosely-made gadget....maybe the lack of precision is the reasoning. That would make sense to me. And before jumping on that comment, realize I've owned several and installed maybe a dozen Hipshots (usually against my better judgement) so I do have a decent basis for m opinion.

Bob - I didn't say other instruments were tuned straight up - I said they didn't need compensators to play in tune, and guitars didn't need them to play with them either. It's only pedal steels that some people seem to think need compensators, and apparently for two different reasons: 1) to put notes out of tune so that they'll match other out of tune notes, and 2) to overcome mechanical flaws where strings don't return to pitch.

It's the chewing gum and wire approach. These instruments were not, for the most part, designed by engineering professionals. They were designed by musicians. So are defects in engineering design so surprising?

I profess igmnorance as to who Buddy Charleton is - and Jeff Newman's tuning chart would do me no good with my "exception to the rule" 8-string B6 tuning.

Every time I type an explanation of what they do, they make less logical sense to me. For example 1, just tune the darned instrument - and if it doesn't stay in tune when the pedals are depressed I'd look at those little nuts or screws at the end of the guitar and maybe turn 'em a little bit. ;-)

As far as example 2 - that one is a complete puzzle. A phenomenon I've never seen, except on a defective Parsons-Green bender once. If your guitar doesn't come back to pitch, fix it - or buy a good guitar that does.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

If you listen closer to the songs Lloyd Green Played on that byrds stuff; He is NOT the one that is out of tune. I'll let you guess what/what-all IS out of tune; but then again; hearing something intune or out of tune will be determined by the level of progression of ones ear for intonation.
I would like to enterject my opinion real quick; wheather someone cares for it or not> I don't care.
I've listened to hundreds upon hundreds of recordings that Lloyd Green and Paul Franklin Jr. have played on and neither of them two boys, have EVER played an out-of-tune note.

Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 18 May 2006 at 11:27 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 18 May 2006 at 11:32 PM.]

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

It has to do with your proximity to the Equator

I have Doppler compensators on all my guitars.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Ricky,
Just from memory was it the bass that was pitchy on the "sweethearts" album ? I don't remember hearing the steel out of tune but I do remember the bass sounding off to me.

Jim,
You have a world of musical beauty waiting for you when you find the time to check out the playing of Charleton. Also Newman's charts will work fine for your tuning if you look at the strings as intervalic relationships.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 18 May 2006 at 11:58 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"Newman's charts will work fine for your tuning if you look at the strings as intervalic relationships"

With my lack of theory knowledge I'm sorry to say I don't have a clue what you mean...so it probably wouldn't be helpful.

Ricky - When I hear someone say a player has NEVER EVER played a bad note - I witness "hero worship" that the players themselves would deny. Everybody plays a bad note. The best studio guys get a kick out of pointing out certain things they "got way with" - and tend to remember those things more than the hits.

So take a deep breath, relax...and realize they aren't perfect. No one is. That's the challenge...otherwise the whole music thing would be really boring.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Jim.

Welcome two the thankfully little world of Bizarro Tuning-Out-to-be-In, and Ideas of Physics supplanting the Laws.

Complete with Icons, Martyrs, Iconoclasts and True Believers.

I'll get back to this one before the Digital Rat Pack gets to gnawing through too many of your vitals. I get off early tomorrow before the gig.

One thing: I have a Hipshot Drop D myself.
What makes it "difficult to tune" is NOT "Hysteresis" not by any stretch ( pun intended), it is good old "Friction".

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing physics with artists, metalurgy with musicians, or describing the difference between friction and tensile inequities of metal to either. I salute Ed Packard in his recording of his studies, and still hope that he can take some time to measure and record this so called "hysteresis".

This one looks like it's going to be plain hysterical...

I'm with you on "Compensators", especially on single notes and substituted chords out of the natural scale.

Whether or not they "no longer exist".

High priced horse hockey IMHO.

Selah.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 19 May 2006 at 05:50 AM.]

George Redmon · From: Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.

indeed Mr West....indeed.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I'm totally with Eric on this..

even though I have clue where he is !

t

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Trombones and trumpets have compensators, you correct the note with lip tension, loose or tight lips can up or down a note.course I played military band for 7 years, and church for 15 I may not know what I am talking about, some of us live in ignorance for years and don't know it.
There are 3 groups of people,
1. some watch things happen.
2. some make things happen.
3. Some do not know what is happening.
This is not aimed at anyone just my 2 pennies.

ernie

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I can't imagine listening to "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" with a critical ear to tuning issues. That album is a lot more important than that. "Sweetheart" sounds the way it does BECAUSE no one was obsessing about their tuning. They just went in and DID IT. And thank God they did.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

From b0b on the other thread:

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I dunno, but I don't want to see one on my guitar.

I have come to find that there are only two kinds of people. People like me, and the others..

Lips indeed. Maybe that's what they use in studios to tune tracks...

Maybe that explains it.

EJL

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Every so often I catch myself playing along without looking at the fretboard...
Does this make a difference? Am I still in tune?

Dave Burr · From: League City, TX

RE: Sweethearts album

As much as I love that album, I've always thought that the fiddle and some of the harmony vocals were what made the steel sound out... Especially on Hickory Wind.

Respectfully,
dBurr

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Bob, it is true that piano tuners don't tune every note to "440"--octave stretching etc.--(I own a piano and have discussed these things with the piano tuners, and have the Reblitz book for piano technicians) but I don't think they are deviating from equal temperament to anything like the degree suggested in most tuning charts. I believe Jeff Newman's has you tune the Fs to 433. It's my understanding that string players, especially in all-string ensembles (quartets etc.), having the luxury (as steel players do) of being able to intonate their notes in the playing, not having frets, play using the natural intervals, which of course is more pleasing to the ear than ET, because they can! To an accomplished violinist, F# is not the same note as Gb! I've had fiddle players who also play classical violin tell me it stresses them to play with bands of guitars and keyboards for this reason.
FWIW, I tried tuning every note on my steel to 440 once. It sounded awful to me. The standard tuning charts didn't sound good to me either, so I take a middle ground; I tune various notes below 440, but by less. This works for me, and seems to work for the people I play with.
Jim, and Eric, the Hipshot flyer never used the word "hysteresis",but it definitely does give the tuning procedure I mentioned (I'm looking at one right now). I use it, and it works. I have a carefully shaped string groove, and keep it lubricated with powdered graphite, so I think I've done all I can to reduce friction. And in Hipshot's defense, once I get the return note set at 440, I can use the lower as many times as I want and it always returns precisely in tune. As measured by tuner. Anyway, it's hard for me to believe that friction is the problem on a pedal steel where the string goes over a well-lubricated roller, but lowers still return sharp on even the most precisely made steel. This suggests to me that something else is the cause. My own opinion (and that's all it is; I'm not a physicist) is that it's the deflection, the bend, of the string over the nut that causes this. Which would explain why keyless guitars have it, too, because even there you have the string being bent over whatever type of nut is used, with some string length, albeit very short, between the nut and the end point of the string.
Well, it's very interesting thinking about and discussing these issues (to me anyway), but as far as I'm concerned the bottom line is: many, many musicians have made wonderful music on steels without compensators and Telecasters with three-saddle bridges.

[This message was edited by Brint Hannay on 19 May 2006 at 06:37 AM.]

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