Customer Dis-Service

Tom Mortensen · From: Nashville TN

I have a early 90's SD-10 that has grooves in the changer rollers from string wear.
I cannot afford to be without my guitar for the week or weeks + that it would take to ship my guitar to the builder and have them do the repairs.
The builder refuses to sell me a new changer so that I can have the repairs done locally.
His reason is that the changer is a "trade secret."
Huh?

Steven Black · From: Gahanna, Ohio, USA

Hello Tom, what brand of guitar is it or do you feel uncomfortable to mention them?

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

That's a guitar I'd sell at a loss just to get rid of it.

Builders like that are doing their customers a disservice. "Trade secret"? What a crock. You can take the darned changer out of the guitar and look at it - what's the "secret"???

This is a case where I really think the name of the builder should be posted.

But - if for some reason you just can't part with the guitar even with the builder's ridiculous attitude, what if you were to send him your changer for a rebuild, and he loaned you one while yours was being serviced? I mean, it's really a stupid way to do things, but no matter which way you look at it there's no secret except maybe the alloy, which replacing a part isn't going to divulge.

What a weird situation.

Edited to add - hey, Tom - there's a Mullen on your website. Feel free to say "it's not the Mullen" and you haven't said anything bad.

;-)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 31 May 2006 at 02:18 PM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

edited due to misunderstanding

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 June 2006 at 08:57 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

A poor choice of words - there are no secrets in a steel guitar changer - but a builder is entirely within his rights in refusing to sell parts. Someone could build a clone using authentic parts and try to undercut his sales.

Maybe he could loan you a guitar to use while your is being fixed.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I agree that this is Customer Dis-Service.

If he's worried about you using it to build a clone, he should say so and insist on a return of the original part, even asking for a deposit pending it's return.

IMO, you'd be doing the rest of us a Service by identifying the brand. Then we could make an informed choice when we are looking for another Steel as to wether or not we want to deal with this type of response.

Howard Tate · From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.

Tom, if it would help I have a D-10 Carter you can borrow while yours is being repaired. I feel like I owe you something for getting me back in to playing after laying off for so long.

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Howard

Tom Mortensen · From: Nashville TN

Howard, thanks, you are too kind.
I can buy a new steel and I will.
It's just frustrating that it is so hard to get parts from a well known builder.
I have had trouble getting other parts from them as well.
I have kept this guitar in tip top shape and put a ton of miles on it. I like the guitar and it's unfortunate that the builder is treating me like a red-headed stepchild.
Jeez... it's just a part.

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

Now you are keeping a secret from us. If it were me, I would post it all the Forum and anywhere else that I could.
Anyone sould take apart the changer and copy any part.
The truth shall set ou free.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12,SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60,GIBSON LES PAUL CUSTOM,YAMAHA L-10A ACOUSTIC,ROLAND JW-50 KEYBOARD,G&L AND BC RICH BASS'S

Brian Henry · Posted 31 May 2006 4:24 pm

Tom, Is your guitar an Emmons??

Tom Mortensen · From: Nashville TN

I'm not going to name the builder on this forum.
The purpose of this post was to vent and feel your pity

There are plenty of players who know what brand of guitar I play and even more are asking since the logo has been removed.
It's not an Emmons...

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

ABSURD!!!... such lousy service..

I respectfully disagree with our congenial host b0b.. that original changer was already paid for and should not have to be returned to get a new one, I just think thats bad customer relations

... I have run into this same scenario with Rickenbacker before and it is SO damn annoying.

They are SO paranoid someone is out to copy them they won't sell a new part without an exchange on certain items... it is not unheard of but I SO agree it is really crap customer service.....

If this were me, I would scream the builders name on this site in a heartbeat, run over to the chat room and start whining over there, Harmony Central, and then start posting handbills on telephone poles... grr.... bob

Brian Henry · Posted 31 May 2006 5:23 pm

Tom! I thought that after you sold that EMCI that had the faulty changer, you got a Carter!

Scott Shipley · From: The Ozark Mountains

"I'm not going to name the builder on this forum.
The purpose of this post was to vent and feel your pity"

Tom, no offense, but isn't the purpose of this forum to keep each other in the loop? I agree, they (the manufacturer)are being unfair with you, but you could save the rest of us from some potential headaches down the road...........let's face it, a new guitar is a BIG investment.

Duane Reese · Posted 31 May 2006 10:56 pm

I can see where Tom is coming from in not saying what brand it is... To do so would be a great big lashing on the back to the maker, and even if they do deserve it, it can be hard to bring oneself to do it.

We don't need to know anyway - just check on that issue before buying if you want peace of mind.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

WEll to play the devils advocate...
The changer finger has so many variations in pivot location to the 1000's of an inch and the distance between lower and raise arms to coinside with the leverage of where those pivots are and what they are made of and how they move and the amount of friction that certainly can be measured...and actually there's quite a bit more....>but you get my drift??
Sure one can take the assembly out and try to copy it to the 1000's of an inch with the exact same material and parts and so on...but that is highly unlikely and unprobable for the amount of time and hassel to go through, just to copy a part exactly.
So I do understand folks not wanting to send their parts out; and it's pretty weird like in the Golf industry>....you can buy a particular club at any store and if it breaks or needs fixing or updating....>the store will do it. BUT PING is the only maker that every store is banned from fixing up/repairing/changing their club at all....YOU HAVE TO SEND IT TO PING.
So just some more senarios to chew on I guess.....>Tom; I do hope you can get it fixed.
Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 01 June 2006 at 12:15 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I see this from both sides...and I also read where the vendor in question did NOT turn there back on Tom for a repair...They will repair a 16 year old Steel...

If it is the Changer with worn grooves, remove the entire changer assembly, keeping it all intact,( clamp) take it to a local machine shop and have them POLISH the entire bridge area of all 10 fingers, keeping the entire assembly in tact as a single unit.

Grooves can be polished out with no problem.

If it is the Rollers, order in 10 new ones .

What Ricky states above is getting more and more common these days, and also..
just to add a new dimension..

The Guitar is from the early 90's which makes the Changer 16 years old... are you sure they are not going to remove it and RE-POLISH it rather than replace it with parts that they probably don't even have anymore..this is 2006...

To my way of thinking removing the changer and polishing it IS the fix... not replacing it, unless there are worn fingers of course.

Would Emmons replace a 16 year old changer ?
How about Sho-Bud ? Can you even get one ?

What vendor can replace a 16 year old changer assembly today and have it be exactly the same as the old one ?

Carter now uses the BCT changer system, and have been since the late 90's...this Guitar, should it be a Carter, would NOT have the BCT system...The two changers are NOT interchangeable...

I think we should just think about what Tom has mentioned..unfortunatley he needs a Steel, and time appears to be the primary issue...

The Vendor did offer to REPAIR the Steel...

They did't turn there back on him....

It's the REPAIR time window thats not acceptable from what I am reading....

This is a common issue with any repair these days, Cars, Air Conditioners, Golf Clubs...Electronics..

"My AC Died, it's 101 degrees"....."Come right away"......"I'm very HOT"...

"We can be there next Wednesday"....

Me, I suspect that sending the Steel to the Vendor for repair is still going to be faster than getting a new changer, removing the old one, installing the new one etc.. You still have wait for delivery of the changer anyway...which could take several days...

How long have the grooves been on the changer ?

I had been a Service tech for the company I work for for 15 years, we have a stock line for these scenario's, I will refrain from using it it here ..But there are several issues going on and the same time, I'll leave it at that....

Tom, you can borrow one of my Steels,just don't take the changer off it !

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 June 2006 at 02:19 AM.]

Alan James · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

Hmmm??!!
http://www.tombleu.com/pickers3.html

Tom Mortensen · From: Nashville TN

My guitar is playing perfectly at this time.
I lightly buffed out the grooves 3 years ago.
But, I'm starting to see them come back. The changer rollers are coated and I suspect that there would be a highly limited number of times that I can do that.
This is why I have been trying to resolve the problem ahead of time.

Yes, I should have another guitar.

My point is that I don't and the builder of my guitar feels no need to help me out on this.
I understand that they have a right to set whatever policy they choose.
With an ounce of effort they probably could have sold me a new guitar and repaired my changer.

In earlier years I did get personalized treatment from this builder. Now, there are other people involved in the business.

Yes, the builder has offered to repair the guitar if I ship it or the removed changer (which I promise not to look at) to them.
He has suggested that it should only take 3 or 4 days. That might be, but from experience on a previous transaction I am not confident in the turn around time.

I have been attempting to find a way to get this done since last September.

OK, I'll buy another guitar!

Jeez...it's just a part!!

[This message was edited by Tom Mortensen on 01 June 2006 at 04:41 AM.]

Tom Mortensen · From: Nashville TN

Last fall I had a window of down time.
I made arrangements with the builder of my guitar, that I would fly out to his city and hand deliver my guitar.
It was to have a pedal kit and knee lever kit installed and the changer rollers repaired.
I was going to wait a couple of days and return home with the guitar.
I had to cancel a week ahead of time, so I called the builder and ask that they send the pedal and knee lever kits to me.
This way I could remove the changer and mail it to them for repairs and install the pedal and knee lever kits while I had the guitar apart and waiting for the changer.
I waited weeks, the parts never came.
When I was finally able to get in touch with the builder, I was told that the parts would have to be built and that they were too busy with their new line of guitars to project a time that they could build mine.
My window of opportunity closed.
So this is when I started asking for a new changer.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Tom, it's a lousy situation - and as a kind service to the steel community, you should be clear about which guitar it is IMO. There are too many guesses ans assumptions being thrown around - and now some other builder will likely lose business if it isn't clarified.

PS - all the stuff about tolerances etc. is irrelevant - Tom HAS one changer, which could be cloned. The whole scenario is incredibly egotistical on the part of the builder - who is not the builder Tom BOUGHT the guitar from, really, as he said.

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

Back in the 80's I had a problem with a Mfg, I had bought the steel from a dealer, that told me he would guarantee the guitar for an extra year over the mfg warranty. Well when the endplate split & the part that you screwed the leg in was going to fall out of the endplate, I was told by the dealer to contact the mfg, it took me several months to get the endplate and the dealer informed me that I would have to do the work myself. Needless to say, I would never buy another guitar from that dealer or that Mfg. I decline to mention either one of them, but there still out there selling to you nice fellows. Hope you don't have a problem with there guitars!! That 2 year warranty is not worth the paper it wasn't written on!!

Ernie Pollock

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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Hmmm...

...assuming Tom read all the posts, he DID say it's not an Emmons.

But he did NOT say it's NOT the Mullen.

So by process of omission, I'm saying it's the Mullen. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

You have a guitar that needs repair. Seems like it must be a guitar that you like since you have played it since the 90s. The maker will fix it, but requires you send it to him. You don't want to send it even though he will fix it if you do. It's in YOUR court now, not his. Sometimes you just can't have things the way you think they should be.

How much trouble would it really be to set up a definite time frame with the builder to repair your guitar and take up this nice fellow on his offer to lend you a guitar.

After the repair you could look forward to another 15 years or so before you have to do it all again.

Also I am wondering how productive it really is to bash the builder here on the forum BEFORE you have gotten the guitar fixed. If I were the builder and read your post, it might not be conducive to getting things worked out.

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