Universal Questions

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Hi to all. I'm a longtime lurker and a new member and I have questions about pedal technique on the new Carter S-12U I received as a birthday present from my brother (thanks, Chris!)

Being used to the 3+1 E9th student setup, I am wondering how you universal players access all or most of the floor pedals easily...I find that the LKL knee lever restricts my left foot to touching pedals 6 or 7 with only the left edge of my shoe. Do you ever use your right foot to access these far right pedals? Should I just fold up the LKL lever when playing tunes that rely on pedals 5 through 7?

I really want to visalize and use the E9/B6 tuning as one integrated tuning with any and all pedal movements fair game, but jumping quickly from the A and B pedals to the ones on the right present a challenge. I have already found many ways to blend the typical E9th pedal changes with the more jazz/swing-oriented B6th sounds that sound perfectly natural.

I just wondered if other universal players try to "jump around" on the floor pedals or do they stay pretty much in the E9th or the B6th pedal neighborhoods for a given tune. With ordinary casual or dress-type shoes I sometimes mash more than the one pedal I want. Are pointed boots mandatory? With only the three floor pedals on my previous E9th setups, this was not an issue.

Any feedback on this will be welcome. I am already addicted and appreciating the "universal" approach and am amazed at the quality of this steel. Since the steel is black, the sound is naturally great!

Thanks.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

"I find that the LKL knee lever restricts my left foot to touching pedals 6 or 7..."

If your LKL is E>F raises, then it typically is not used with the B6th pedals, which are typically used with E's lowered to Eb.

Are you possibly talking about "LKR" being in the way?...(left knee moving a knee lever to the right)?

Congrats on the new axe!
Pete B.

Mike Ester · From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA

Hi, Frank.

I also have a Carter S12U. When I shift my left foot over to pedals 4-7, I scoot my left hip back slightly, so that my left knee will clear LKR. After a little practice, I found myself doing this automatically.

When I position my left foot back over pedals 1-3, the LKR pivots up and drops back down as my knees passes it.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I use the following setup:

https://steelguitar.com/resource/tunings/tununive.htm

[This message was edited by Mike Ester on 05 May 2006 at 12:41 PM.]

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Thanks for the replies. I should have referred to the LKR as the lever that seems to interfere with my left foot moving all the way over to the right. My setup is the same as Carter's "most requested." That LKR combined with P2 gives me a spooky minor chord that I would probably use only occasionally. I have already noticed a tendency developing where I back away from that LKR to reach the far right pedals more accurately.

I find that the combinations of P1 and LKL, and P1,P2 and RKR give me big, fat 13th and 9th chords that fit in beautifully with the ninths, minor 6ths, and major 9ths available with the B6th and it's related pedals --- a jazzjunkies's candy store!

Anybody have definite preferences for footwear, or is this something that time and practice will solve?

Jim Hankins · From: Yuba City, California, USA

Hi Frank, I went to a Carter U12 from a 3 and 1 too (same copendant). I find myself jumping around in the "6th mode" like from P5 quickly to P2. Get used to that LKR (G#-F#). You can do alot with it .

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Good advice, Jim. I think the idea of just backing quickly away from the LKR to access P4 through 7 makes sense....I really don't want to put any of the pedals out of the running and take away from the "universal" advantage of this tuning. I have also discovered the usefulness of going from B6th with RKL to a simple B7th by adding P2 to be very useful, but it requires a fast left foot to hit P2 when that foot has been over at P 5,6 and 7.

I am trying to avoid looking down at the floor pedals and am getting more accurate but I wonder if this is realistic. Should players of Universals (and double necks as well) try to avoid looking occasionally for the desired floor pedal(s) and just go by "instinct"? It seems that looking down is a distraction and could interfere with making smooth changes.

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Error: I should have said going to B6th with RKR. I'll get used to this yet!

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

can't you change the angle of the LKR to move it farther to the right? it might even have to be moved (cross shaft & all) to the next position available to the right?? or isn't that possible on a Carter? for the do-it-yourselfer?
only steel I ever tried to work on & failed was
a PP......zero experience on them!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

What some are referring to as 'sixth mode' is just another position of E9. Just like A+B A6 mode. Actually I don't favor the term 'mode' since this has an entirely different meaning in music. It's just a position.

On the universal, that position (the B6 position achieved by lowering the 4th and 8th strings from E to D#) has several pedals and levers that do useful things and modify the open tuning to get other chords and tonal movement. It's one big tuning and treating it as otherwise restricts your thinking unnecessarily.

If you want to play it like a D-10 (E9 is E9; C6 is C6; and never the twain shall meet) you have that option. You also have many options that aren't possible on a D-10. As a novice universal player, it may take you a while to appreciate those options but that's ok. Think about how many E9 players brag about finding ways to play C6 style music on the E neck. You have those too -- in addition to the actual grips, pedal and lever combinations, and sounds of the actual C6 tuning.

You must teach your hands to find the string grips and your feet and knees to find the useful pedals, levers, and combinations. You have the advantage of being able to learn from instructional material written for E9, C6, AND the E9/B6 universal tuning. It is a very powerful musical machine. The better you learn it the more you will be capable of exploiting it. The only way to do it is . . . to JUST DO IT. Practice 12,11,10; 11,10,9; 10,9,8; 9,8,6; 8,6,5; 6,5,4; 5,4,3 -- until you are able to play any of those grips without looking. Practice hitting your E to D# lever and -- without looking -- find each of the last four pedals AND 5 and 6, AND 6 and 7. Practice rocking off one or the other and listen to how it sounds. Learn the names of the chords you are making.

Hard work? YOU BET
Worth it? UH HUH

==
edit
==
Uncle Doug just reminded me
YES -- you should be able to hit ALL the last four pedals without engaging LKR. If you can't your guitar needs to be modified. Either the lever should be moved or the angle changed to allow it. All three of my guitars have TWO LKR levers and I use both for combinations with most, if not all, pedals.

Also
Take a look at my website http://www.larrybell.org
You might find something useful there
Good luck

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 May 2006 at 02:18 PM.]

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Larry, Doug,

Thanks for the good info. LKR came from Carter adjusted straight up & down but I just made an easy allen screw adjustment to angle that LKR more to the right and it made it much easier to access those floor pedals on the right. LKR itself is still easy to use and it is also now easier for my left knee to quickly back away from and bypass LKR if necessary.

Larry, I fully agree on using all the applicable pedal combinations on the universal. I also play Hawaiian style on non-pedal so I was happy to find full or near-full A6th, E7th, C#m7th, B11th, and even the good old C6th appearing as the B6th, only one fret difference. My old Hawaiian tunes can now be played with much richer chord content. My challenge now is not to "overdo" it just because I can with this guitar.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've only had the guitar a couple of weeks, but I'm getting adapted bit by bit. It's a "little" more than a 3 + 1!

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Carter U-12 here---if you ever need guidance or hands-on help, Frank, get in touch. I've done a lot of set-up personalizing on my guitar and added levers, etc. I know the underside pretty well. Moving that lever, if it looks like a good idea for you, is not a big deal. BTW--is your guitar a single or double body? More options for lever location, front/back, on a double.

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Jon, thanks for the kind words.

My Carter is a single neck U-12. I will certainly investigate the need for and feasability of moving the LKR. Since Carter put it where it is, I just assumed that is the generally desired location and angle of the lever. The adjustment of the LKR a few degrees to the right makes sense, since it is virtally impossible to easily access pedals 5 through 7 with other than an awkward use of the edge of the left foot's shoe.

I do recall the double neck players discussing the need for a shift in body position to easily access the inside neck floor pedals, but they don't have to deal with jumping from one end of the floor pedal rack to the other the way a universal player does (unless they keep both necks active and switch back and forth just to confuse any steel players in the crowd).

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Frank,
I just switched to a U12 myself, played my first gig with it last week-end, was good!

I don't know if anyone would recomend it, but I adjusted my P-6 a little higher than the rest of the pedals, I can feel it when I slide my foot over, hey anything that works!! lol...
After I get more used to the positions of the pedals maybe I can adjust it back down..

Larry

------------------
"Fessy" S/D 12, 8/6 Hilton Pedal, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Frank Welsh · From: Upstate New York, USA

Larry, that sounds like it might work for me...adjusting the height of one of the pedals on the right side so there's some reference point. I am practicing quick jumps from the A and B pedals to pedals 5,6 and 7 and often hit the wrong pedal or, worse, hit the correct one and also an adjacent one by mistake....sounds like cats fighting in a bag!!

I am of average build and height, so I assume the guitar is basically set up more or less o.k . for me, but some tweaking might be in order. If I sit over too far to the right or don't sit close enough, I can't activate the LKL easily. I think it must be like an organist using all those foot pedals - it's just a matter of practice over time to hit those floor pedals consistently.

Also, adapting to the visual orientation of 12 strings as opposed to the usual 10...I'm tending to grip too low for the "E9th" chords
since I played 10 strings for many years, but that is slowly improving.

I think there is a steep learning curve when first adjusting to a universal, especially if you have to "unlearn" deeply ingrained 10 string reflexes, but I'm confident that the adaptation will take place.

Thanks to all for the tips.

[This message was edited by Frank Welsh on 05 May 2006 at 06:34 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Frank,
If you think of E9 ending at the 9th string you're missing a lot of great low voicings. The 10th, 11th and 12th strings don't have to just be for the B6 stuff. Remember you have an E9 expanded downward and a B6 tuning similar to C6 with a G (1st string) and an A (3rd string) on top. Many of us also lower the 2nd to C#, giving you the D that many C6 players use on top.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Frank,,
Those lower voicings that Larry B. just mentioned are really great.

I got some really nice compliments last week-end on the use of those lower voicings.

I'm like you at this point, I'm just feeling my way around, but things are begining to make some sense to me.

The LKL on my guitar is taking some getting used to, I have 2 LKL's, the one in front raises my E's, I use this a lot and have to be positioned just right to reach it and still be able to get over on my back LKL. I'm still in the experimental stage right now and don't want to move or tweak any knee levers until I know for sure what I want to do with them.

Larry

------------------
"Fessy" S/D 12, 8/6 Hilton Pedal, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

[This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 05 May 2006 at 08:39 PM.]

Peter · Posted 6 May 2006 1:44 am

Jeff Newman suggested to convert the LKR to a LKV; this vertical lever is very long and can be reached/used from any pedal position.
I have got it on mine and it works perfectly.

------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

I have no LKR on my U-12 guitars as in Jeff Newman's pedal setup. When I start playing in the E/9 position and then go th the B/6 I adjust my hip a bit as someone else mentioned. That seems to end up with a happy medium and access to all pedals and knee levers.

Scott Appleton · From: Ashland, Oregon

I have a Mullen U12 but I have 3 verticle levers and one LL lever on the left side.
That eliminates the LR problem ..Also I only
use part of the B6 copedent as I have included
some of Mooney's into this hybrid tuning i use.

------------------
Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 +, Vox Ad30vt,JBL D130, Acoustic 165 100 W all tube EV 12, Nash 112, digitech 2101 FX, too many stomp boxes

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

FWIW, I find that I can keep my left knee in one place between LKL and LKR, and let my foot swing from left to right over the pedals like a pendulum.
I have my pedal heights set to match the slight arc my foot makes (a little higher on the ends, a little lower in the middle).
~pb

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I'm with Pete on this one

We single neck players can't use the right levers to do double duty like the double neck players do so we're already in the hole a bit on knee levers. I can't imagine sacrificing the LKR position.

I do have long legs, but I believe that someone of any height can do as Pete describes if the height of the guitar is correct and the levers are spaced and aligned properly. My Fessy has 8 knee levers and I can get to all of them and combine any lever with any pedal with minimal movement.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic