Half-diminished (m7b5) on E9

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

OK, I give up... where's the little sucker hiding?

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Jim,

How about:
10-9-8F-6B (B-D-F-A)
7-6B-5(1/2)A-4 (F#-A-C-E)
8F-6-5-2 (E#-G#-B-D#)

?

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I always use D# F# A C#: lower your E's with pedals down, strings 8, 7, 6, 5.

F lever plus 2nd pedal does it too. Strings 10, 9, 8, 6 (B D F A).

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Gee Bobby,

I use that voicing all the time to give a bluesy color to the V7 with the E lever, but I never even thought about it as a 1/2 dim7 or mb57, which of course it is (as you point out).

Cool!

Dan

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Another is G# B D F# - lower your 2nd string to D and play strings 6, 5, 2, 1. Wierd grip but it works.

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Hey Jim. The easiest way for me to relate to a half diminished is to play a minor chord that is a minor 3rd above the root of the half diminished chord. For example if it calls for a F half diminished, (F minor 7- flat 5) I think A flat minor.

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

Jim,

There is a mi7b5 in the 'open' tuning.
With the 6th-string as a Root, the 7th-string is a b7th, the 9th-string is a b5th and the 9th-string is a b3rd.

If you lower the 2nd-string ( by a half-tone ) then every string except 4 and 8 are notes of the 'half-diminshed' chord.

Randys 'shortcut' is, of course, right on.

Another thought that may help clarify the 'half-diminished' mystique is:
Leave the Root out of a Ninth Chord and you are left with a half-dim chord.

For an example, let me transpose Randys example to a different key so we won't encounter as many flats/sharps to deal with:

For example if it calls for a B half diminished, (B minor 7- flat 5) I think D minor.

If we look at the third fret (with the 2nd-string lowered a half-tone, in case we choose to use that string) the notes we have are A B D F and G (and octaves of the same):
With G as a Root this would represent G9th.

If we omit the G (Root of G9th) notes (strings 4 & Cool

we are left with the notes A B D and F (and octaves of the same).
With B (string 6 or 3) as a Root this represents Bmi7b5.

Also notice the connection to Randys tip, in that if we also omit the B notes we are left with D, F and A; a D minor, which is the 'minor chord that is a minor third above the root of the half-diminished' .

Think about how you often use a 2 minor as a 'sub' for a 5 dominant - The half/dim 'lays' right in there with them.

When someone says, "8th fret, A & B Pedals, and Lower 4 & 8" we tend to think "G Ninth".
However, if we look at different potential Root Notes we would find a D minor beginning on string 7; and find a B half/dim beginning on string 8.

This 'line' of thinking is an 'extension', if you will, of how, for example, the 'upper' three notes of a CM7 is an Emi, or how the 'upper' three notes of a Dmi7 is an F. Call it 'Overlapping Chords', perhaps.

~Russ

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I always thought of that first inversion (B D F# G#) as a Bm6 chord. I guess they're interchangable, but for me it's easier to spell a chord from its root on up.

On my 12 string extended E9th, the G#m7b5 is strings 11, 10, 9, 7.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Drew Howard · From: 48854

I think of m7b5 and dom9 minus the root as the same chord.

Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.

Jerry Erickson · From: Atlanta,IL 61723

G9 no root B,F,A,D on guitar strings 5,4,3,2
Bm7b5 B,F,A,D
Dm6 B,F,A,D

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Dizzy Gillespie maintained that a IIm7b5 is really a IVm6; in other words Dm7b5= Fm6. In a lot of older songbooks, you see swing progressions written that way.

D F Ab C = F Ab C D

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 April 2006 at 10:59 AM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Y'know, this is turning into a very interesting thread! Thanks to all you guys who've contributed both the "how to" and the "why". Don't stop now. All insights welcome.

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

I like the term Russ used 'overlapping' chords. I've often thought of them as "compound" chords. I see a b9 chord this way. Take a G7b9. I see it as a G7th chord with an E major triad on top. So when soloing over that change I'll look for the E triad to be a part of it.

Many of the instruction methods are the same only to be separated by terminology. However, when explained in different terms takes on a whole new perspective for some. For me, simple is better.

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Further to John McGann's comments, I've heard the older jazz guys call it
"sixth in the bass" as well, meaning
Gm7/E = E half diminished.

Gillespie is on record as saying his first exposure to the chord was through Thelonious Monk, who helped him write the bridge to "A Night in Tunisia". That's how Monk looked at the chord.

It makes sense to look at it that way from a scale mode point of view too, as both E half diminished and Gm7 are derived from the F major scale.
The other mode option is the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale. In this example, E half diminished is derived from the G melodic minor scale.
The only difference between the two is whether the 9th tone of the scale is natural or flattened.
In my opinion, the nicest voicing for a half diminished chord involves placing the 4th tone immediately next the the flattened fifth. They are only a semitone apart, so it gives lots of dissonance. From the bottom up:
Root
4th
b5
7th

I'll admit I haven't found a voicing for that on the e9th tuning, but I'll think about that today, Jim, and see if I can find one.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

[This message was edited by John Steele on 18 April 2006 at 11:31 AM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Bbm7b5

1-----
2--0--
3--0--
4--0--
5--0L-
6-----
7-----
8-----
9-----
10----

Haven't tried it out on the steel yet to see how it sounds. That's a piano player's voicing... sometimes they work well, sometimes they don't.

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

That's an easy one.
Thanks, John.

Duane Reese · Posted 18 Apr 2006 11:12 am

I found myself searching for this very same chord about a year ago myself, for "The Days of Wine and Roses". I had some fancy way of doing it that I found but I've since forgotton how I did it - maybe one of the above mentioned. Here's a couple of ways I've found:

Strings 4,5,6,9 with 9 and 6 lowered a half (if you have those pulls) and...

Strings 2,6,8,10 with 2 lowered half and 6, 8 raised half (B pedal F lever)

My intention was to find it on C6th though, and here's what I came up with for that:

Strings 3,5,6,8 with the #6 pedal

Now I know I'm not the only one! I think I like some other E9th ideas better than the ones I mentioned.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Now you guys are forcing to learn it on E9...Geez

Actually I've always used the 3rd of a 9th chord method to get me by.

Duane...I also like to play string 1 on top of your first example. It's like lowering the high C a half on the C6 version (pedal 5, 9th string root)

Youz guys are smart fellers

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Can any of you guys point out a fairly recognizable pop, rock, country, or anything tune where the 1/2 Dim is sort of a crucial chord in that song, or really defines the sound of that song? Is the 1/2 Dim basically a passing chord; such as the full Dim, or Dim7th?

Steve Knight · From: NC

Chip,

"Night and Day", by Cole Porter. The opening chord is a Dm7b5. It's unusual, too, becuase it's a minor 2-5-1 that resolves to a major I instead of a minor I.

Dm7b5, G7, C major

SK

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Another one I like is "Black Orpheus" (aka: "A Day in the Life of a Fool") which starts off with Am / Bm7b5 / E7b9 / Am

But I can't think of any "country songs" that use it. Maybe someone else can.

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 18 April 2006 at 03:39 PM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Duane, on your C6 neck there are also two other fairly simple options.
With pedal #5, you get F#m7b5, rooted on the raised 9th string. You can pick your own grip, as you can strum the whole chord right from string 9 through 2.
Also if you have a lever to raise your 4th string from A to Bb, you can use it in conjunction with pedals 5&6 together to get Cm7b5, rooted on string 7, all the way through to string 3.
Your Days Of Wine And Roses chord was likely an Am7b5 with a D note on top (in the third measure) so your pedal 6 voicing is a good choice for that at the 12th fret using string 1 for the melody note. The reason I mention it is because some people use pedal 6 & 7 together to achieve not only the melody D note on top, but to add the natural ninth in the chord. (See above explanation about the 2 choices of modes to play over the chord). That's a subjective thing. Some people like the natural ninth, some don't and would prefer it flattened.
Bill Evans, or John Coltrane would use a natural ninth. Oscar Peterson, or Lester Young, would not.

Ahh, springtime, and all the chords are in bloom

-John

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

"Time Changes Everything" for one...think Western Swing tunes, which some folk won't allow as "Country". Edited to say that the standard chart for TCE has II7b5 / V7 / I. The IIm7b5 was a passing used for the second beat of the II7b5 chord...it has only been about 50 yrs!

A common chord that comes close would be G7/B, or G9/B etc.

In a scalar harmony approach, the VIImb5, VIIm7b5, VIIm7b5b9, VIIm7b5b11, or VIIm7b5b9b11b13 is the chord before the scale resolver (=I).

Put another way, it is the odd intervals of the IM scale starting on the seventh degree = C,E,G,B,D,F,A,C,E,G starting with B as the chord root.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 18 April 2006 at 05:02 PM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

>>Is the 1/2 Dim basically a passing chord; such as the full Dim, or Dim7th?<<

No. It functions more like a minor II chord. It's like a minor II chord that grew up on Long Island.

Chip, you hear alot of people talk about the
II-V-I change. It's really important. If it happens in the context where the I is major, it would look like this: (example in C)

Dm7....G7....C

Fine. Now, if the I chord is minor instead, then the II chord would more likely be a half-diminished chord. (also called m7b5) Like this:

Dm7b5....G7b9....Cm

I made the G chord a 7b9 for a reason. As with almost all II-V-I changes all you have to do is drop the 7th in the II chord a semi-tone, and it resolves automatically to the appropriate V chord. Important to know.

The very best example of a tune written to show off Major and Minor II-V-I changes is
Autumn Leaves.
Three extensive threads here:
The Head - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000104.html
Trading Fours - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000106.html
And accompanying notes - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000105.html

Duane talked about Days of Wine And Roses. If you look at that chart, it goes like this:
|F...|Eb7#11 |Am7b5|D7b9|
|Gm..| etc. etc.

Now, look at measures 3,4 and 5.
What it actually is, is a minor
II-V-I change where Gm is I

Even though we're in the key of F, you have to be able to isolate those passages which contain inferences to other keys and tonalities, especially when playing jazz standards and old pop tunes.

It's harder to find a jazz standard without a half diminished chord than to find one with one.

-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 18 April 2006 at 04:02 PM.]

[This message was edited by John Steele on 18 April 2006 at 04:12 PM.]

[This message was edited by John Steele on 18 April 2006 at 04:15 PM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Randy, to take the compound chord idea a little further:

The E triad over G7 is a G7b9 13 (E being the 13, G#= b9 and B the shared "pivot" note that is the 3rd of G and 5th of E).

Make the E an Eb and the triad could be an Abm (Cb Eb Ab). Call the Cb a B, and you can spell it B D# G# (G#m)- you get a G7 b9 b13 (the only difference is the b13).

The b9 b13 would resolve smoothly as a V to I minor; for example, the b13 (Eb) of the G7 is the b3 of the home key, or I chord, Cm. The b9 13 combo can resolve to either I major or minor, but really "sets up" the sound of the I chord being major, since it contains the major 3rd of the C major (E).

The way to get mobility of the concept is to think of the interval relationship- i.e. for b9 13, think "major triad down a minor 3rd from root of dom 7" and for the b9 b13 "minor triad up a half step (from the root of the dom 7)".

There are many more (and not just on dom 7 chords), but those are two great ones.

========
Another m7b5 miracle: Play your Dm7b5, and for the G7 altered sound, just raise the voicing a minor 3rd (Fm7b5).

F B Eb Ab- the 1st two notes are the b7 and 3 of G7, the Eb is b13 and the Ab is b9. Dang, there it is again!

You don't even need a bass player to play the root of G as your ear "fills in the blanks" IMHO.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 April 2006 at 04:59 PM.]

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