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Topic: G# Compensator Sticking problem - A solution! |
C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 29 Nov 2018 4:12 am |
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Hi All
I thought I'd share this in case anyone out there wants to try it.
I've seen plenty of topics touching on this issue but here's a quick recap. The issues with string 6 annoy folks to differing amounts and for different reasons and I found myself on the 'must do something about this' side. G# on string 6 sticks out like a sore thumb to me if its not bang on in tune and mainly when switching between the open triad and the A and F combination. If its a perfect third open the cabinet drop on the A F combo makes it flat and if its a perfect 5th on A F then its a mile sharp open. I started with the common compensator rod worked by the A pedal which lifts the G# changer raise finger by the same amount of the cabinet drop and all is well. Perfectly tuned triads. Except there's a problem! Pressing A and then raising and lowering B makes the changer sit slightly sharp. I spoke to an expert about this and its a fact of life with an all pull changer. The B raise is on top of the comp raise and the changer scissor doesn't get back to the end stop. So you either have to jiggle A when changing or hitting the G# lower lever works too. Usable but not ideal when sliding from inversion to inversion. So I tried without the comp but having tasted the perfect chords, I had to try and make it work.
Here is my solution.
I've fitted a reverse compensator on 6 which slightly lowers 6 in the open position. Then when I engage A it lets the comp off before anything else happens and the string raises back to the neutral position entirely compensating for the cabinet drop. This means the B raise is just a normal raise and isn't compromised. All good! But then I spotted one tiny issue. My RKL lower on 6 was sticking slightly. The answer was another pull from RKL onto the crank that removes the comp lower. Took a bit of adjusting but its all solid now and I haven't had to touch it since. I just tune up as normal and can forget all about the lower. It was all made quite easy as I had a spare cross shaft so all the fiddly stuff could be placed out of the way in between the knee levers.
Hope someone finds this interesting and gives it a go.
All the best
Calum |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 29 Nov 2018 4:31 am
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Interesting indeed. Thanks for posting. I need to spend some time wrapping my mind around this and I may (will likely) have questions.
The Williams guitar that I recently ordered and hope to receive early next year has the least cabinet drop of any steel guitar I have ever seen (I was working on a friend's Williams and I was astonished by the readings I was getting -- 2 cents drop was the average on an aluminum neck model, vs. 7-8 cents on my other guitars).
So it is possible that I may not pursue any further modifications to deal with the 6th string (wound). We'll see. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2018 9:36 am Re: G# Compensator Sticking problem - A solution!
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| C. D. Maclean wrote: |
I've fitted a reverse compensator on 6 which slightly lowers 6 in the open position. Then when I engage A it lets the comp off before anything else happens and the string raises back to the neutral position entirely compensating for the cabinet drop. |
Yes, that's a good solution. It's better than "the common compensator rod worked by the A pedal which lifts the G# changer raise finger by the same amount of the cabinet drop " that you tried first, and not only for the reason that you mentioned. The other reason is that "the common compensator rod" only works when the B pedal is not engaged. Your solution also works when the B pedal IS engaged, and you need it there on the A note as much as, if not more than you need it on the G# note. Otherwise the interval of a fifth, between E on the 4th string and A on the raised 6th string, will change as you operate the A pedal, and if your guitar has bad cabinet drop, and you tune that A-to-E interval with AB pedals down, it will be way out when you release the A pedal.
That said, my solution is to use a wound G# string. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2018 9:39 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| The Williams guitar ... 2 cents drop |
Excellent! Don't fix it. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2018 11:08 pm
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| ...more vibrato.... |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 12:13 am
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| ...more beer... |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 12:43 am
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C.D., I'm the king of tuning compensators, just ask Jim Palenscar who I've forced to install my many on my Mullen D12; he was thrilled when I moved out of state I suspect.
Anyway...what is a reverse compensator? How do you get a compensator to take effect with no pedals or levers activated, the tuning at stasis?
I raise both G#s a touch with my F lever, bringing the perfect 5th in an A+F chord perfectly in tune. My rig doesn't have a lot of cabinet drop, thankfully. My next add will be to raise the string 6 a tad with C pedal, that pedal causes the most sagging of my middle strings, and really makes playing in tune difficult. B pedal could over-raise string 6, but that would throw off all my closed chords.
_________________
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▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 10:12 am
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Hi John
A pleasure to hear from the compensator king! The reverse Comp is a wee creation of my own which I’m affectionately calling the Maclean AAT compensator. (There’s a fine Scottish expression ‘Arse about Tit’ meaning upside down or back to front)
The lowering pull rod goes to a normal bell crank but on a shaft all of its own. Further over is a custom made crank which has its pulling part running parallel with the shaft.
The main gadget is a centre pivot swinging arm not unlike the levers that reverse a right moving knee lever but with a spring at the bottom. Then I run a pull from the top of the arm through the odd bell crank and adjust tension using nuts until the spring has just enough pull on the arm to pull the lower. The normal pedal crank and it’s end stop limit the travel. Then it’s just a case of a pull from the bottom of the swing arm over to another funny crank on the A lever cross shaft which is also adjustable with nuts. The wee surprise was the required link to RKL which has to work as a push from yet another funny crank, this time pushing the bottom of the swing arm instead of pulling. It took two attempts to get the leverage just right so that it didn’t annoy when playing and it actually helped the feel of my RKL half stop.
I’ll make version 3 one of these days that will be polished and refined so that it matches th rest of the MSA quality. Or perhaps I’ll drink more beer as the wise man suggests!
Cheers
Calum |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 11:16 am
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Sorry for the alcohol related humor.
The problem with the unwound 6 is exactly as John McClung describes.
When the pitch on 6 sags double that of string 3 you are going to have dissonant octaves and the C# chords, the AF and A and C#7 with out of tune 5ths.
I prefer the unwound 6 for these reasons:
I like the tone better.
I use the shiny glare of string 6 as a visual marker in a field of 12 strings.
It has less bar noise.
One of my guitars, the drop on Str 6 was around -8 cents. String 3 was -2 cents. That makes for an ugly octave.
I had Jim Palenacar change the guitar over to a wound 6th string. Not a small job.
The wound 6 cut the cab drop in half. Now on A/F or other chords the 6th drop -4 and the 3rd drops -2. That is a very reasonable drop for a C# chord.
So the wound 6 solved the problem in that guitar, but I only use it on the guitars that require it because I prefer the unwound string.
I would like to try both the compensators and reverse compensators on String 6 as mentioned.
John |
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 11:29 am
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Don’t apologise for suggesting beer John! I can assure you many pints were consumed coming up with this and possibly a fine malt or two!
I couldn’t let it go as I’d tasted the perfect chord sound and it’s just so alive. I’m also quite inspired by a lot of your American singers at the moment that can nail a note and hold it with no vibrato. Seems to be more of a traditional thing your side of the pond. So I’m trying to learn not to waggle that bar which means tuning has to be much better.
Now beer.......
Cheers
Calum |
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Jerry Kippola
From:
UP Michigan, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 4:02 pm
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The only issue I have on my Zum, is the E9 cabinet drop
with pedals 1/2, the two Es do not drop the same amount, with the 8th string dropping two cents more than 4th string. I put a raise compensator on P1 to raise 10 to equal S4. |
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 11:07 pm
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This might help with my clumsy description of the AAT.
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Dag Wolf
From:
Bergen, Norway
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Posted 1 Dec 2018 6:10 am
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This is the reason I use a 022w.
Tom Brumley (RIP), Jay Dee Mannes and Lloyd Green also do this.
If you change over to a 022w you will have to rearrange all pull rods on the 6th string and make more back slack for every pedal or knee.
I`v tried a whole tone drop with a 022w on a Legrand III and the changer couldn´t do it. Must have something to do with the pivot points of the Legrand changer.
The Franklin and Zum do it and even a -75 ShoBud did it perfect.
I would like to know if somebody has a 022w on and whole tone lower on a Legrande.
My 2 cents
Dag |
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Dag Wolf
From:
Bergen, Norway
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Posted 1 Dec 2018 6:10 am
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This is the reason I use a 022w.
Tom Brumley (RIP), Jay Dee Mannes and Lloyd Green also do this.
If you change over to a 022w you will have to rearrange all pull rods on the 6th string and make more back slack for every pedal or knee.
I`v tried a whole tone drop with a 022w on a Legrand III and the changer couldn´t do it. Must have something to do with the pivot points of the Legrand changer.
The Franklin and Zum do it and even a -75 ShoBud did it perfect.
I would like to know if somebody has a 022w on and whole tone lower on a Legrande.
My 2 cents
Dag |
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