1/8 Note Right Hand

Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

If you are playing 1/8 notes either on the same string or moving to different strings but playing the same string more than once before moving what do you find the best way to do it. I have tried double thumb or 2index or middle and I have tried thumb and index. If I get any speed at all, Having a hard time getting comfortable with this and wondered what others do.

Pat Chong · From: New Mexico, USA

Hi Doug,

I believe you answered your own question. "Having a hard time getting comfortable..." is the key. Choose your method and practice. When you do get comfortable with it (thumb/index?) your speed increases.

Working on it, too.......Pat

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

It may depend on the size and shape of your hands - we're all different - but I find thumb and middle gives the best balance for repeated notes. It feels like a contortion at first to get both picks hitting the same string but I persevered.
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

It took me forty years to settle down and work on Thumb/Index coordination, particularly crossovers when moving beyween strings. In my case there is an old piano piece from my third year book called "Spinning Song" which is a crossover excercise for keys but works perfectly for steel also.

The main thing is keep at it, after only a few months all manner of new possibilities are at hand.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Thumb & middle finger alternating & crossover opened a world of possibilities for me. Like with piano, there is no 'running out of fingers'.

But ironically, I only recently came to realize that there is a LOT to be gained by also working on doubled-up thumb, doubled-up finger string jumping. It was leading me to do things the harder way to have a mindset that there was only one right way. Sometimes it is more efficient and simple to grab a string with a simple string hop with the same finger. But for the dexterity of longer runs & arpeggios I have a more pianistic way of thinking re: crossover.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm currently so confused because I can no longer remember what I used to do. Yet I managed to play for my living even if I was never lightning-fast.

Since retiring (three years now), I've found myself looking hard at the best players and seeing if there's something I can assimilate. I tried Paul's course and Travis Toy's but changing to pick (or 'fingertip')-blocking at my age is proving to be 'a bridge too far'!

Or it is at the moment. As others have said, real application is required to take any new technique on board. During my 'practice' sessions, my lower back starts aching before I feel I've accomplished anything.

I would never have dreamed of attempting such a change while I was playing for my living. It's the same with changing pedals and KLs - I've lost count of the alterations I've made in the last 24 months and I wouldn't have dared switch a pull while I was working.

Oddly, I play six-string electric (no picks) thumb-and-2 and can achieve good speed. But: on steel and wearing picks, I find T-and-1 comes more easily.

But it lacks attack! Paul, Travis and my favourite, Gary Carter (there are others, of course), strike the strings with absolute authority. I'm reluctant to spend seat-time with a new method if it doesn't yield the same quality and, so far, nothing does.

The most accomplished players can opt for any pattern they choose because every combination has been seared into their muscle-memory from endless hours/years of application.

Jon has a good point with his 'no running out of fingers' phrase. That should be the aim.

Doesn't Doug Jernigan mainly use T+1?
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Since Jazz and Bebop thrives on chromatisms, at one point I dedicated myself almost exclusively to developing that technique. Thumb & “The Finger” has been what emerged as the most suitable combination.
I practiced going up, down cromatically 3 frets (which on C6th) is the farthest one may have to go before jumping to the next string, and also back and forth, to synchronise right and left. Like all technique, it’s -unless you are younger than 16- a 3 month boot camp episode before beimg im the sack.

As far as chromatisms, I prefer to move diagonally across the strings to shorten same-string re-pick.

But what may have crystalized as a good option to one, may prove eternally awkward to the other… JD.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

Thanks for all these great replies! I spent months working on Joe Wrights 32 moves a couple years ago and this is what I am going to concentrate on for awhile. I appreciate the ideas and experience shared here. Now time to go to work!

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I can’t speak for anyone else, but my thumb, index, and middle fingers can only go so fast when cycling through a series of clean pick strokes, whether on one string or adjacent strings. So “double-thumb”, or “double-finger”, or whatever you want to call that single-digit repetitive pick stroke is very tempo-dependent for me. I mostly practice that technique only in terms of using 3- and 4-string grips, and bouncing between inversions of chords.

For single note playing, I try to alternate T-M-T-I,T-I-M, and every combination/order therein, as per the Joe Wright method, because it works on one string, adjacent strings, or strings spaced out all across the board. Joe and others may use double thumbing and fingering, but I don’t have time for practicing it. Maybe it happens by accident sometimes.

There is the chicken-pickin style that utilizes a type of muted rest stroke with the thumb, raking across two or more adjacent strings before snapping at an un-muted string or two with the fingers at the end of a forward roll (or the beginning of a backward roll). There is also the forward and reverse rake across two or more consecutive strings. But I don’t think that’s what you’re asking about.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Interesting that Fred brings up thumb double picking.

I played "flat pick" guitar for years after I stopped steel until I took it up again. In Gypsy Jazz, we use "Rest Stroke"... a LOT... most is played down-stroke, resting on the next string.

Speedy West can be observed playing extensively "thumb, thumb, thumb" throughout his entire career.

After seeing Paul Franklin blocking with the bottom edge of his thumb (right behind the thumb pick), I tried to apply that to some sort of "rest-stroke" thumb technique on steel going across the strings into the higher ones. I can't say that it has been a success.
Speedy, coming out of "non-pedal" and having too much fun with his bar anyways tended to block by lifting the bar too (among other methods)... evidently, a bar "kiss" occurs when putting bar back on... a technique which was replaced with the appearance of 10 and 12 string guitars with "odd"-note tunings (too much "kiss"-noise).

I looked at how I pick today again... on ONE string static, going up and/or down... and it's mainly M-T-M, only RARELY the thump. I must say that I am teaching my self to NOT always start a phrase with the thumb anyways... because starting with I and M in a forward-going run (towards the higher strings) frees up the thumb to reach over the first two picked string into the next higher (while blocking the second string) and have I & M follow suit on top in a quicker less quirky manner. It's not always, and phrasing (up/down beat) also is a "player".

I think that what I am trying to say is, that you have to EXPERIMENT CONSCIOUSLY. Consciously trying several "systems" against tracks and developing a technique that works for YOU and the music style you aim to play.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

Great advice, thanks so much. It is interesting that when I started playing in 2019 I used T M all the time, now I use T I for most things and really don’t know when it changed. I am trying all the combos as I experiment

Allen Merrell · From: Georgia, USA

Joe Wright's The Wright Hand has worked for me. Using thumb and 3 finger picks is very natural feel to me and for blocking I use what is convenient at the time. To me it is what feels comfortable to you. Their is as many ways of doing it as their are people playing these things, no right or wrong way just what is right for you. Lol, and in parting words Jeff Newman would be on you like ugly on a ape if you were doing anything other than palm blocking.
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J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I think Jeff was of that generation that grew into PSG and with PSG came more strings and on C6th "odd" notes.
Players of the previous era were often jealously secretive about a number of things, like tunings and certain techniques. I was told that strumming over someone else's steel could get you thrown out into the back alley.
Bar-lifting could be seen. Other techniques not so easlily.

I long theorized that Jerry Byrd DID pick block in part, some times... long before PF was said in the 90's to exclusively pick block. Which he now explains also only as part of his blocking.

"Comfortable"?... I don't know. At first, nothing is comfortable on these rigs. But it has to be functional and not cul-de-sac into a bad habit hindering further development of articulation, tone and speed.

Yes, I think most would naturally start with thumb & index... and use index and middle only to grab harmonies, it seems so logical at first.
JN was an avid proponent of "cross-picking" and using primarily T & M. JN was no Doug Jernigan, but he could play pretty fast when needed. And it helped me to involve M more and more.

Pick blocking is a funny experiment at first too. I tried the first day Bobby Bowman brought it up (in the 90's discussing PF). I tried and the first day I called it quits. I just couldn't "double down"... I went back at it with Joe Wright's method and while I decided not to use his "claw" had position knowing that I was going to play a lot of wide gripped 4-note chords in staccato over different string groups, I would eventually have to palm block.

I play single notes with the bar lifted, only playing with the tip, like John Hughey did very visible (in contrast to BE who mainly put the pressure on the tip with his index to concentrate on the bullet part.
JH's method allows me at times to just pull back (into the bassier strings, blocking with the tip of my left middle finger sticking out beyond the bar's tip. I caught myself starting to do the same thing pushing into the higher strings and blocking with the left hand's thumb below the tipped bar. It's fast. Sometimes faster than what I can play... so, it promising.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Allen Merrell · From: Georgia, USA

JD I like your analogy of this. As the times have changed the ways of playing the steel have changed too. I will pickup and use any technique I find useful or that I can do. Things I was told not to do years ago I use them now and don't feel bad about doing them. Yes, all you mentioned above I am guilty of too also I like to use my thumb by the bar on my left hand to kind of kill the ring to form a walking bass line sound. Man, years ago that might have been bad for me, lol.
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Bruce Blackburn · From: Nashville, Tennessee

I use all of the combinations described in the post. For me the combination I use depends on where my fingers have to “go” next. Double thumb for me if I am doing a reach for the next strike or if I have a two finger strike coming next. The key for me is to execute now while preparing to execute the next.
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I don’t know what kind of 8th notes you’re talking about, but this is Buck Reid playing 16ths at (just guessing) around 135-140 bpm.

https://m.facebook.com/100057132413433/videos/this-is-buck-reid-performing-on-the-first-steel-guitar-cruise-this-guy-is-amazin/1641912215866704/

Let me know if you see any double-thumbing or double anything else in his solo without doing a double-take. And never mind the technique and speed, the musical ideas are all coherently phrased statements.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I don't think Jeff's method is dated at all. T,M, T,M you can play just as fast as you can using 3 fingers...and there's no confusion about which finger comes next. If you just picked a note with your thumb, the middle finger is next. You don't even have to have the first finger, pointer, in the equation for speed picking. There are other times of course such as for wide grips etc. when the first finger comes into play.

The thing about that method is if you're not employing that hand shape, T,M,T,M, doesn't work. You must shape your hand like you're holding a ping pong ball and pick under the palm...you can't do T,M very well if you're playing flathanded fingers way out in front.

The technique is that the hand shape never changes, you just climb the strings up and down moving the whole hand v. just reaching with your fingers.

I don't think Jeff invented this technique, it was by observing other players that produced the tone he thought was best...they all seemed to be using a similar peaked knuckle hand shape. Example below:

I think it's a mistake to mix techniques. I would recommend pick a method and stick with it. You can make it work if you just concentrate and practice on it.

My opinion, for what it's worth, which may not be much around here. Happy pickin' all!

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

The Newman method is dogmatic. I got palm-blocking and the hand angle from his Alpha video, which was great. But I thought strict T-M for single notes was aimed at fingerpicking beginners, which I was not.

I’m still learning the different value levels of the opinions here, Jerry. A precious few are the Gold Standard, and we all know who’s they are. For the other 19,999 of us....Usually if somebody thinks enough about what they have to offer that it’s worth entering into the Forum for posterity, there’s something worthwhile in it - even if it’s “wrong”. Sometimes even the ones that aren’t worded coherently are pretty far up there. I only skip the ones that repeat something in the thread that’s already been said at least once before. So, no qualifiers for you other than that, afaic 🤠

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Fred:

I hope you don't think that most of us should keep quiet! I'm sure I've been guilty of posting thoughts and/or theories that aren't fully-formed, but doing so gives me some clarity, especially when there's an intelligent response (often pointing out something I've missed).

I think that I and the other 19,998 participants have a tendency to post when some revelation has struck us. Some older and wiser heads may roll their eyes and say: 'I knew that years ago' but I think it's okay to share such thoughts. Whomever we are, we're all still learning, surely? Speaking for myself, it comes from an earnest wish to know more.

As for 'posterity', I'd say that 99.9% of our ramblings sink to the bottom once the thread loses its impetus. And that's okay.

(I'll admit that there are some whose threads I don't even open so I suppose I've made similar judgments. Smile

)
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Picking:
I'm making a rod for my own back, dabbling in pick-blocking at this stage. I can now no longer play with any acceptable fluidity because I'm switching between methods. Jerry's post resonates with me, not because I was a big JN fan but because the peaked-hand is a hallmark of so many fine players. Jeff just clarified it for his teaching program.

I plan on reverting to T & M and angling my picks slightly. That's where I find the best tone lies. Not exclusively, of course, but as a basis. The speed possible with this technique is surely as rapid as anyone could want.

As for Buck Reid, words fail me. He strikes everything with such authority, too. He could play like that when I first heard him maybe twenty-four years ago. Remarkable.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Roger, I am glad everyone and anyone can speak freely here no matter what their level of authority on any given topic is! If that weren’t true, I would never have had direct communication with someone like Paul Franklin on the subject of what he called “intervallic and triadic improvisation”. Nor would I have discussed with you about what it was like working with and rubbing elbows with the variety of my personal musical heroes you encountered in your career. I have even managed to help out a couple people here myself - or at least led them to believe I was helping 😎

On this subject of playing with speed and authority… It is an obsession for so many of us, I think it is a most worthy topic. I very much appreciate everyone entering their thoughts on it.

Right hand technique is obviously the key. I suppose the different hand positions and blocking techniques determine what thumb and finger combination(s) work best in a given situation. Possibly the reverse is true also. If you play strictly T-M on your single note lines, there is a good chance you are playing in the right hand pyramid shape and you palm-block like a Newman disciple. And maybe it works great for you, as it has thousands of others. But I don’t believe I am reinventing the wheel of right hand technique by choosing Joe Wright’s approach instead. I just find it more open-ended.

I have even heard it said that “there is no hybrid blocking technique”, even though we see great players combining blocking techniques all the time (including Joe Wright). Same with picking sequences. Maybe a player uses predominantly T-M for their single note lines, but does anyone NOT EVER use forward or backward T-I-M rolls in their playing? Why would you strictly avoid them? Does blocking technique determine this also?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I hope that Doug doesn't think we've strayed too far from his original query. In my opinion, all this discussion is relevant, though, so here goes...

I'm currently enrolled in Travis Toy's lesson-plan (did I say that already?) After a certain amount of experimentation, I find myself doubting that I'll commit to a change and try to emulate his method. He accomplishes so much: clean, fast runs with good intonation, all backed up with his good grasp of theory but, at my age, I want to be playing music on my instruments and I frankly don't have the time it would require to commit to his right-hand technique.

I'm by no means a 'disciple' of Jeff's; he certainly had a solid technique but I didn't find him an inspiring player. His 'peaked hand', though, replicated many first-class players.

I have a test piece. Forty years after Buddy first recorded it, I still can't execute it with his nonchalant and relaxed delivery. It's the melody of 'Sleigh Ride' (Christmas Album). When we were lucky enough to have the 'Ask Buddy' page and could pepper him with questions, I asked him how he'd fingered that phrase (the first 2 or 3 bars of the verse). Buddy misunderstood and told me where it lay on the fingerboard (strings/ pedals, etc.). I wanted to know if he'd played it T+M or T+M+I but he somehow missed my point and I never found out. It's possible either way, of course but, when I play it, I can't help but go from T+M to T+M+I (strings 6,7,8 ); as soon as I use the 3-fingered roll, then my peaked right-hand collapses a little.

Goodness knows, I'd rather not slavishly copy anyone, however great they may be, but that recording of E's always stood out to my ears as a near-perfect performance; he played that as well as it could be played and set such a high bar (he's done that a few times. Smile

)

(I'm assuming the first four pick-up notes on the 4th string are four thumb-strokes in succession. I'd love to hear opinions on how he played the rest of the phrase.)

Attempting that 'test-piece' sets the tone of any practice-session. Fairly clean? It's a good day. If not, then I'm in for an uphill climb.
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Fred:
As for me 'brushing shoulders' with some of your musical heroes, I'd say that puts them in a more realistic perspective rather than giving me any credit. We were all out there together, trying to get a living. The guys in the Searchers, Beatles, Stones, etc., didn't have musicianship that was discernably greater than the rest, yet a spark happened and popular music had a fundamental shift away from the traditional tenets of the music business.

Even as late as 1962/3, I can promise you that we all - Beatles included - still gazed across the Atlantic in awe of the guys who'd created rock-and-roll. None of us suspected that, before the year was out, you 'had to be English...'
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Doug Taylor · From: Shelbyville, Kentucky, USA

This has turned into a really good conversation full of valuable advice. Thanks to each person that has contributed!

I am reading and listening to what is being said here and trying different ways to pick, I am going to try PF permutations today using Jeff’s TM fingering, I have done it many times using Joe’s method so will be interesting to try.

This forum is an invaluable resource!

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

It's not my intention to force my thoughts on anyone else. I was just trying to explain one of the reasons T,M,T,M might not be working for a player and why the hand shape is necessary to be successful with that method.

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