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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 12:38 am    
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Can someone please explain an effects loop to me? Having been pretty much an old blackface Fender man all my life (I freaked out when I saw that my Twin had a master until my amp guy explained that if I put it on 10 it would take it out of the circuit haha), and never using any effect 99% of the time with the 6-string it was never an issue to me. My Nashville 400 has 2 ins and outs (one in front, and one in back). I think the one in back allows a signal to be run direct, I don't know. The Peavey manual explains it in a technical sense but, does anyone use this sort of thing? And, to what effect. This is only a curiosity thing because I'm a rather simple-minded, less is better, and rely on your playing abilities sort of guy. I can't see me using much more than a delay, vol, maybe at some point, stand alone reverb and maybe a Tube Rotosphere for an organ effect. Thanks for any input.
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Godfrey Arthur

 

From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 1:07 am    
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An FX loop was designed to better interface an effect within the amp's circuitry rather than going through the pedal first and then into the amp's input jack.
Not all pedals are the correct impedance for a particular amp. An FX loop is designed so the input and output impedance is correct for most guitar pedals.

The FX loop is set in between the amp's preamp and power amp this way the preamp is free to do what it does without getting blasted by a pedal.

The result is a cleaner sound out of your guitar and amp if you use pedals.




You can get a better signal to noise ratio out of FX loops, your pedal ends up sounding better in an FX loop rather than going through the front of the amp.

Many times delays, reverbs are placed through an FX loop to get better response out of the effects.


Depending on the type of FX loop it is some need a return signal so just routing a send to somewhere, the amp may not make sound because the circuit is not completed without a return signal.

The more sophisticated FX loops have adjustments to dial in for different pedal impedances.






Marshall JCM900 FX loop and line out.


There are snake cables that allow pedals to be connected to the back of amps' FX loops so the player can have them where he stands playing to actuate them.



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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 1:52 am    
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Thanks Godfrey. You are a wealth of info. Your replies are always so in-depth - and appreciated. I tried my DD3 in a few different ways and it seems to sound best (to me) before the vol pedal. Of course, the Twin (which, to me again, sounds much better than the Peavey - to be fair, the Peavey needs a new spkr) has no loop. When I get the Peavey fixed up, I'll try both of them live and see if I still feel the same. I plan on getting a Tube Rotosphere - I'll try it in the effects loop and see what happens. Thanks again.
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Jack Stoner


From:
Kansas City, MO
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 2:13 am    
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There are several different effect loops and different signal levels. On some amps there is a "pre" effect loop which is before the EQ section and this is usually at the low "instrument level" which most stomp boxes are designed to work at. On some amps, such as the Nashville 1000/112 there is a "Post" effect loop that is after the EQ section and this is designed to work at -4 (higher) signal level. Many "line level" devices will work in this Post effect loop. There is the full "line level" loops such as those amps that have Preamp Out/Power Amp in jacks.

The old Peavey Session 500 had a "Volume Pedal" loop (for a passive pot type volume pedal) which in reality was a Pre EQ loop and at the low "instrument" signal level. (The Pre EQ loop on a NV1000/112 will work the same way as a passive (not active) volume pedal loop).
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 8:37 am    
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I find that running the reverb and delay pedals through the rear effects loop in my Nashville 400 works and sounds the best to me. Before the VP doesn't work at all for me. When I cut back on the VP, I lose the tail of the reverb/delay. Unacceptable to me.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
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ajm

 

From:
Los Angeles
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 8:51 am    
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Godfrey did a pretty good write up on this subject, and most of what he says is true...........to a point, on the surface, in general. But you just knew that someone would have to disagree, right?

Just to cut to the chase and negate a lot of reading ahead, here's a catch all statement: If you are a clean signal type player (like 99% of all steel players), you don't NEED to use the FX loop. Running the effects into the front of the amp will be fine. (As with everything, this is open to disagreement and dissecting to the Nth degree, but in general I stand behind it.)
And........
The absolute easiest and quickest way to see if the FX loop is going to work for you is to try it.

OK, moving on (you were warned)......... ;>))

"An FX loop was designed to better interface an effect within the amp's circuitry rather than going through the pedal first and then into the amp's input jack."

To add to this, and to open it up for disagreement, I will state that effects loops were designed primarily for guitarists that use distortion/overdrive in the amps (and not with a pedal). Putting a modulation type effect like a delay/chorus/flanger/reverb/etc in front of a screaming amp will mush out the effect as well as amplify any noise from that effect. Putting it in the effects loop will theoretically solve this problem. If you are running a clean amp, the effects loop will be of a lesser value to you because you won't have the problems to the same degree.

"Not all pedals are the correct impedance for a particular amp. An FX loop is designed so the input and output impedance is correct for most guitar pedals."

The reverse can also be true. Not all FX loops are designed for pedal level signals, or impedances for that matter. (I know, I have one.) It really depends upon the amp and effects you are using. Having the wrong combination between the FX loop design and the effect being used can lead to different problems. I'll make another blanket statement: Most FX loops in general are designed for and/or work best with rack type effect signal levels and impedances.

"The FX loop is set in between the amp's preamp and power amp this way the preamp is free to do what it does without getting blasted by a pedal."

In a practical sense a modulation effect is not going to blast an am input. A distortion pedal or overdrive or a booster, maybe.
And speaking of blasting things, it is possible to blast an effect input by using it in an FX loop. You could have the wrong combination in terms of either impedances or signal levels in the loop. But also keep in mind that since the loop is fed by the preamp, turning up the amp volume will almost always by design result in an increase in signal level coming out of the FX send which feeds the effect(s), potentially leading to blastation.

"The result is a cleaner sound out of your guitar and amp if you use pedals."

Reading the above, and having everything matched and adjusted properly, yes. You should have a cleaner effect that is not mushed out, with less audible background noise from the effect.

"You can get a better signal to noise ratio out of FX loops, your pedal ends up sounding better in an FX loop rather than going through the front of the amp."

If all things are matched up right, true.

"Many times delays, reverbs are placed through an FX loop to get better response out of the effects."

Yep.

"Depending on the type of FX loop it is some need a return signal so just routing a send to somewhere, the amp may not make sound because the circuit is not completed without a return signal."

I have found the opposite to be true, but there are no guarantees between designs. Generally, you can use the FX send to feed something else besides an effect (another amp, or mixer, or whatever), and still get sound out of your amp. However, plugging into the FX return by itself will usually silence your amp. (Note that this also means that you can feed your power section of your amp from another amp, or multi effects pedal, or whatever. But that's a whole 'nuther topic.)

"The more sophisticated FX loops have adjustments to dial in for different pedal impedances."

Impedances as well as signal levels, I agree. However, even these are not all necessarily designed right. (I know because I have one. I modded it to work right.)

Just to make clear from one of Godfrey's photos: FX loops are sometimes labeled differently. Effects send/return, Pre Out/Power In, etc are almost always the same thing. However, your amp owners manual is the place to go to be sure. For example, some Peavey amps sort of have two loops (the old volume pedal patch thing). And some multi channel amps have FX loops for each channel. And then there are series loops (which most of them are) versus parallel loops. And now I'm getting a headache.

So what can you do to try and get a better match between impedances and signal levels without modifying your amp? There are devices that are designed for this. Ceriatone makes a couple that go into the loop and allow you to adjust the effect send level as well as the return level. Bludotone makes one that is almost if not the same thing, and it's more expensive. The Ceriatone ones are more affordable. These are all offshoots of and inspired by the Dumble amps "Dumbleator".

**** One thing that was not said: A speaker output IS NOT an effect connection and should NEVER be connected to an effect input OR another amp's input.

OK, fire away.
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 4:00 pm    
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Wow. I'm still a little mystified (a truly monumental case of ADD doesn't always allow you to understand things until you truly want to, or need to understand them haha). Great info from all. I believe I quickly tried everything right after I got the amp, and decided that: guitar/DD3/Hilton/amp, sounded best to me. I'm sure if I was inclined, or a studio was giving me grief about noise, I could experiment a little more and maybe come up w/something better. But for now this works for me. I'll probably be using the Twin mostly anyway (I think it hands down, sounds better) till I come across a situation where I need more volume. I just never understood what it was all about. Thanks fellas
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Godfrey Arthur

 

From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 24 Sep 2017 5:03 pm    
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ajm wrote:


...The absolute easiest and quickest way to see if the FX loop is going to work for you is to try it.


...And then there are series loops (which most of them are) versus parallel loops. And now I'm getting a headache.

So what can you do to try and get a better match between impedances and signal levels without modifying your amp? There are devices that are designed for this. Ceriatone makes a couple that go into the loop and allow you to adjust the effect send level as well as the return level. Bludotone makes one that is almost if not the same thing, and it's more expensive. The Ceriatone ones are more affordable. These are all offshoots of and inspired by the Dumble amps "Dumbleator".

**** One thing that was not said: A speaker output IS NOT an effect connection and should NEVER be connected to an effect input OR another amp's input.

OK, fire away.


Yup well said AJM. Thanks for elaborating.

There are those under the guidance of a stage tech who do both, run pedals into the front of the amp as well as the FX loop. And these artists like Steve Lukather leave it to amp rig gurus like Bob Bradshaw and Jon Gosnell to figure all that out.

Buffers are used to smooth things out.

Here's a headscratcher of a cool Rig Rundown with JB on Lukather's gear, using both input and FX loops on two amps.

Two pedal boards, a main and a satellite, one goes into the front of the amp while his delays go through the FX loops on both amps.

Don't be shy to hit replay a few times until it sinks in..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU4-0GZbies

JB quips Luke's rig is " sorta shockingly simple."

Yeah right JB...let's get back to drinking class..Laughing

Last word out of Luke was he uses a Kemper in the studio at times, since the economy has mandated that everyone scale down as transporting becomes costly.

Gone are the days of BAYOS. (bring all your own sh*t)


I met Luke through my childhood friend who was managing him some years back on one of the last(?) Toto gigs and Luke's Ever Changing Times solo release.
Great album btw, the depth side of Luke. Proves he's not all just pretty fingers.


Luke had a much more elaborate setup pedal wise including several custom cabs, even a subwoofer then and with Bob Bradshaw in tow.





_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
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Lee Baucum


From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
Post  Posted 7 Feb 2018 2:19 pm    
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I have found that with both my Evans FET-500LV and my Fender Steel King, delay and reverb pedals create too much noise when placed between the volume pedal and the amp. They work perfectly when placed in the F/X loops of the amps.

None of pedals create noise when placed in front of my Cube 80XL amps, which don't have F/X loops.
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Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande

There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.


Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat
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