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Topic: Diminished Chord Intonation in E9 |
John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2017 2:36 pm |
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How happy are you with the pitch of your diminished chords?
I've been auditioning different PSG temperaments recently. My default diminished chord is my least favorite chord of the lot. This is by raising the Es to E#/F. Similar to the C#dom7th.
I've noticed most of the pedal steel tempered tunings have the E#/F at around -22 to -26. This creates a harmonious major 3rd to the already lowered C# note.
I suspect the bugaboo is the tritone, with a -25 difference between B and E#. (Versus ET).
The Meantone tuning has a better sounding diminished chord with a diffence of -15, versus ET.
How satisfied are you with your E9 neck diminished chords?
What tempered tuning, or not tempered, do you use?
Do you have other inversions of diminished chords that you prefer in E9?
Thanks,
John |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Sep 2017 2:49 pm
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Pedals down, strings 3,4,5,6, lowering my 4th and 5th. It's still a compromise, however, and I find myself sliding up or down three frets to take the focus off the actual pitch of the component notes.
PSG is sometimes a question of making the best of things.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 19 Sep 2017 11:12 pm
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You will drive yourself crazy if you try to get every chord type perfectly in tune. A diminished chord is one that you generally only pass through on the way to somewhere else. It's the chords that you resolve to that really need to be in tune.
I've given up trying to get any chords in tune other than the major triads. All the rest are much less noticeable, at least to me, if they are a bit off.
Also, if you can't get a three note chord in tune, just play two notes of the chord, and let someone else play the third note. Two notes are generally enough to imply the whole chord.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Sep 2017 2:19 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| A diminished chord is one that you generally only pass through on the way to somewhere else. |
...and apart from those cases where you can rationalize it as a 7b9, it's just a bunch of minor thirds so it'll always be dissonant in the theoretical sense. The one with the F lever is the worst because of what we have to do to get a decent C# major chord.
| Paul also wrote: |
| Two notes are generally enough to imply the whole chord. |
I made the mistake when I started out of trying to play everything in triads, but when I opened my ears I realised that a lot of the most effective steel playing is two-part harmony, not three.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2017 1:48 pm
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Today I found another diminished inversion that sounds nicely in tune.
If you have a G# to G lower.
E G C#. Using the A pedal, the G from the lower, and your E.
Run that up and down 3 frets and it sounds great.
J |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Sep 2017 3:55 pm
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If you're willing to accept a three note version, try a reverse slant, strings 8, 6 and 5, which not only raises the E string, but "unflats" the 6th string
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2017 4:26 pm
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I favor the way Lane describes. Buddy Charleton told me he did it that way too. For some reason it sounds more in tune than raising the E's on the pedal. Plus, I just like to stay in practice with reverse slants.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2017 11:46 am
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Lower register 10-9-6 and 9-6-5 (no pedals, with the accursed D string)
Middle register 7-6B-4E (E 1/2 lower), 6-5-2D (D# 1/2 step lower)
Upper register 3B-2-1
Greg Cutshaw's excellent suggestion for half-pedaling A with B down and E's lowered means any string works, even 9 (accursed D again) as a passing tone.
I am okay with the slight tuning discrepancy, for the reason previously sited regarding the passing tone nature of the diminished chord. More important that the chord being resolved to is in better tune.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 21 Sep 2017 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Sep 2017 12:08 pm
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I can get a complete 4-note diminished with pedals down, Es lowered and 5 lowered to C natural on the verticle. 4, 5 , 6, & 7 or 5, 6, 7 & 8. I have no 7th string compensation and my C is really a B#. Whether that helps I have no idea. It ought to work for anyone who has Es on the right. On the left might be more awkward with the vertical.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2017 5:03 pm
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| The wolfiest interval of those is between D and E# (on strings 8 and 9), so it helps if you can avoid playing those 2 together. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 21 Sep 2017 6:10 pm
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You just can’t beat the old E’s raise lever for all around simplicity. Application is more important than how you get those notes. I like to use diminished a half step up to create tension Ex: key of C use G#dim over the V chord same as (Bdim) but also weave in and out of G dim at the same time. Add sauces to taste.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2017 7:00 pm
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| For the way I tune, if I have string 8 raised a half tone as the lowest note of a diminished I like to slant the bar a bit to bring it more in tune. Works for me. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Sep 2017 4:37 am
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| Peter Freiberger wrote: |
| I like to slant the bar a bit to bring it more in tune. Works for me. |
The F lever approach is simple and intuitive. If you're substituting for a VI chord you can hear the root moving up a half step just the same. Needs a slant, mind. Because I also lower E a whole tone I can have fun alternating the two.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2017 2:26 pm
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Does anyone use a compensator on their E raise to F?
It would be convenient to have it engage when using your A pedal and E raise together. Many people have that raise flatted to work with C#major, C#7, etc.
For other uses it would be nice to have it tuned differently. Like the diminished 7th examples.
John |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Sep 2017 1:27 am
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| I have just noticed that Earnest wrote: |
| wolfiest |
Surely one of those words that only musicians understand 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 27 Sep 2017 6:31 am
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Yes, they add a lot of scordaturas to the vocabulary, enlivening it.
(I realize I'm stretching, but it's what piano tuners do.)
| Tab: |
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| Scordatura: A change in the ordinary tuning of a stringed instrument, to obtain special effects or easier execution. |
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Even among musicians definitions take on different meanings. I found a definition for 'wolf' from b0b in this topic: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=277054&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=meantone&start=50
| Quote: |
| A "wolf note" is a note on an acoustic instrument that is too close to the resonant frequency of the instrument itself. This creates undesirable beat frequencies. |
Among a herd of pastoral sheep will be a wolf, at least in PSG tuning, an interval that must be dealt with (in scoradatural fashion, using slants or otherwise) to make it harmonic.
I think diminished chords have the most potential for 'undesirable' beat frequencies.
For this reason, their elements are best used as passing tones, eliminating the middle note, not playing the two outside notes simultaneously.
I can't see the use of a diminished chord when it can be implied, particularly where other instruments can fill it in.
As you point out, John, that leaves the tritone, a further reason for using the elements sparingly. I enjoyed your topic.
And definitely, meantone tuning handles the minor intervals better. |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2017 6:33 am Dim chord
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I usually use the old Bud's Bounce way. With no pedals go up three frets and play strings 5, 6 and 9. Simple and in tune!
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Sep 2017 1:10 pm
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What Doug reveals is that if you remove any one of the four notes from a full diminished chord you are left with a dominant 7th without the root. 5, 6 and 9 work perfectly because we tune them that way to atart with.
The problem with using the F lever for a diminished chord is that we tune it to a tempered E# (for the A/F combination) and then try to use it as the F in a G7.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2017 9:39 pm
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Okay...5-6-9 works just as well as 9-6-5.
Yep I'm good with that  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Sep 2017 12:15 am
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Sure thing, Fred - but why is the D string "accursed"? I don't have one on my uni, but it's not because I'm afraid of witchcraft.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2017 11:00 am
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Ian, in a recent forum discussion on the pros and cons of universal tuning versus extended E9, some posters mentioned that they were changing the D string on their E9 10 string necks to B and the low B to G#. This emulates part of the lower range of 12 string tunings, and the D note is achieved with a lever or pedal. The claim was something akin to the D string just getting in the way most of the time.
Bullpucky I say! Without it there is no un-pedaled / un-levered flat 7th, and therefore no E9.
Just to stay on topic, without string 9 tuned to D, I believe the power of the E9 neck is uh, diminished....Anyway, I love my freewheeling D string and will defend its honor to the end |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2017 11:28 am
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On S12U we think in more terms of having a D-note available in that position, rather thsn a D-string.
Fwiw, I got no complaints about Diminished chord intonation. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 29 Sep 2017 6:40 am
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Fred, I'm with Pete, but that doesn't mean I'm against you!
I realise that the 9th string D is an essential part of the E9 and that it should remain in an extended E9 12-string tuning.
But on the universal (which is a combined, not an extended tuning) it's more important (to me at any rate) to have the B6 grips uninterrupted when the Es are lowered, so for E9 playing I compromise by being able to create a choice of Ds, either by lowering the E or raising the B.
(I haven't been playing long enough to develop any ingrained habits with the D string, and being able to move from D# to D on the same string seems like a bonus.)
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2017 8:00 pm
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It's all good, Ian. I am aware of the differences in uni and ext tunings. I am not drawn to either at this stage of my development, though I do see possibilities with E9x.
My rant was aimed at 10 string E9'ers who drop their D string in favor of the semi-extended E setup. But even at that, just because it makes no sense to me to do such a thing doesn't mean it can't work for somebody else.
Good luck to you and all you other brave souls who dare tread the music world plucking on a Uni! |
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