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Topic: My U12 Epiphany. |
colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 1 Sep 2017 4:59 am |
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Hi guys and ladies. I recently bought a U12 with the aim of having a 6th tuning in a light E9th package.These are a few thoughts on what I've found about the tuning.
First thing is that the U12 extends the 9th tuning into the lower register. You've got the range of a 6 string guitar and more.
It also extends the 6th tuning into the treble. Looking at it as a C6th, it has the high G and the D strings and extends that even further to a 6th on top. If you could reach the 2nd pedal it would give a b7th on top.
But the epiphany is that because it is a B6th, the scales line up on the same frets as the E9th.
So, if you played an E major scale on a C6th from the 6th string to the 2nd string on the 6th fret , you would be outlining an E9th scale without the pedals.
The only difference is you need to play the roots one fret higher( 7th fret). Or if it's a U12, play it on the 7th fret and just release the E-D# lever and you can actually see the shape of the E9th scale.
Play an E maj scale on the 7th fret of your E9th neck with the pedals, strings 8 to 4.
Then play a E major scale on the C6th on the 6th fret from the 6th string and you can see that they're the same. On the 6th neck you're not using pedals but the shape is the same. Allowing of course that the root notes are 1 fret higher.
On the U12 both scales are on the 7th fret.
And that will work for all the inversions of the scale.i.e. open position, 3rd fret ( A pedal and E-F lever ) and at the 7th fret (pedals down). You are just outlining the same scale as on the E9th neck without using the pedals. Brilliant!
That means you only really have to learn the bottom end of the scale, strings 12 to 8 as per C6th patterns.
I'm finding this helps me to move between the 3 scale inversions without the total newness of the mysterious C6th.
Now I'm sure this is common knowledge to a lot of experienced 6th players but to a relative newcomer to the 6th tuning such as myself, it's an epiphany. Woohoo! Cheers Col. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Sep 2017 6:22 am
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What we call the C6 tuning is really F9, with a major or minor 7th depending on whether P6 is up or down. So transposing down a half step, B6 is really E9, and the so-called B6/E9 U12 is really just a lot of E9 with movable 7ths. It's one big tuning if you wish to think of it that way, but in practice it just means you can swap necks without moving your arms. And carry it without injuring yourself.
So well spotted 
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 1 Sep 2017 4:12 pm
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Well there you go.  All that brain power wasted on something that is common knowledge.
Thanks for the reply Ian. So do most players just see C6th as F9th? The little that I've seen on the tuning over the years, I've never picked that up.
Anyway I suppose finding these things for ourselves helps cement it in the brain.
Just makes me wonder why there hasn't been a wide spread move to the tuning as it seems to cover more ground than a D10.
Cheers Col. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Sep 2017 9:50 am
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| colin mcintosh wrote: |
| do most players just see C6th as F9th? |
I can't speak for anyone else, but it is half the time. The weird thing I discovered about C6 is that when you grab a bunch of strings the chord you get has a different name depending on what bass note you put under it. So C-E-G-A is C6 with a C bass and Fmaj7 with an F. C-Eb-G-A is Cm6 with a C bass and F9 with an F. And so on.
Adding that low F to the C6 tuning was an act of genius. Does anyone know who or when it was?
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 3 Sep 2017 5:38 pm
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I have not a slightest doubt that if I knew back then what I know now, I would have start and played U12 7+5 steel, with an E lock lever.. 100% .... but I didn't know, and there was nobody around to tell me anything , so well, it is what it is ...
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https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 3 Sep 2017 7:52 pm
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Hi Damir. I had a D10 in the late '70's and never progressed on C6th too far from what was in the Winnie Winston book. Here I am returning to the pedal steel after about a 30 year break and I thought, yes the U12 would be a practical way to study the 6th tuning and still play E9th.
Then when I saw that connection between the E9 scales and the B6 scales being on the same frets, it left me wondering, why would anyone relearn their scales one fret up to play C6th?
I suppose it's what you learnt on and got used to first.
Anyway, I'm sold on U12. So many advantages over the double neck.
BTW I bought that white Carter U12 that was on the forum. Sweet guitar. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 3 Sep 2017 8:03 pm
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hi Colin, good to hear that you are coming back to steel guitar with U12 .... that Carter was one of those guitars I lost money on, it was a basket case all messed up underneath when I got it....I took it apart, cleaned it, and took it to Steel Guitars Of Nashville where Buck Reid did an awesome job putting it back together, and adjusting it perfectly... it was a super nice guitar at the end.... enjoy it ....
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Sep 2017 9:39 pm
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I started out on a D10 and very early on decided to tune the rear neck to B6 in anticipation of acquiring a uni. I'm glad I did and would suggest it to others, even if they never make the swap.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 3 Sep 2017 10:30 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I started out on a D10 and very early on decided to tune the rear neck to B6 in anticipation of acquiring a uni. I'm glad I did and would suggest it to others, even if they never make the swap. |
right..so where were you in 1988 to tell me that when I bought my first steel guitar... lol
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Sep 2017 8:45 am
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Damir, it breaks me up to think I let you down.
Hmm - that sounds like a song....
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 4 Sep 2017 9:15 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
Damir, it breaks me up to think I let you down.
Hmm - that sounds like a song.... |
but seriously, I wish someone was there back then to tell me all that stuff ...
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https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2017 9:25 am
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Me too, Damir… when I was figuring out where to go next from the Maverick I started on in '76 I got almost no positive advice about U12- "it's a compromise", "Pros only play D10s", "too hard to figure out"… at the time I didn't realize the entrenchment of thought of some of the steel fraternity, and pre-internet had little access to those more knowledgeable.
I wish I'd gotten into Universal early and made it a central part of my playing experience. Might not be for everyone but I find it the most versatile approach.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Sep 2017 9:46 am
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That's the benefit of being a novice player. I wasn't too far into C6 when I made the change to B6.
If I had been playing C6 for a long time I don't think I would have found it easy on the brain. And if you have a D10 with lots of levers on the back neck you can't take them all with you to the uni. But I'm happy with just the basic ones - they'll keep me busy for at least one lifetime.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Wilson
From:
Ventura, California, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2017 7:35 am Ah! The wisdom of hindsight and epiphanies.
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And the power of the internet.
After a looooong break of playing an E9 MSA back in the early 70's in county-rock bands, I returned to PSG about 7 years ago.
Friends on this forum helped me to conceptualize and apply a tuning that 1. Worked like I thought (musically), and 2. Allowed me to apply 45+ years of 6 string guitar knowledge.
I settled on a variation of the 10 string Zane King/Zane Beck/Al Marcus E6/E9 tuning and I havent looked back once.
My style is nontraditional, but there are plenty of the old licks in this tuning to satisfy the majority of hard-core double neck folks.
This tuning stimulates my mind along the lines of a great chess game, and I can honestly say I have an epiphany every time I sit down to play. So much to learn! So much fun to play!
A special kudo to b0b for his numerous posts on theory.......
J.
_________________
Customer: "Waiter, how do you prepare your chicken?"
Waiter: "We usually tell them they're not going to make it." |
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Ron Kassof
From:
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2017 12:04 pm
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You can tune your D-10 C6th neck down a half step to B6th. Now everything will line up as it would on a U-12. That might be a good way to test the U-12 waters before diving in. Aside from having to play "legacy" tunes with open strings, I don't think there's much reason not to.
I think that if you're like me and don't have to "un-learn" any C6th playing, U-12 (with no E lock) makes a lot of sense. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 17 Sep 2017 1:48 pm
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| Ron Kassof wrote: |
You can tune your D-10 C6th neck down a half step to B6th. Now everything will line up as it would on a U-12. That might be a good way to test the U-12 waters before diving in. Aside from having to play "legacy" tunes with open strings, I don't think there's much reason not to.
I think that if you're like me and don't have to "un-learn" any C6th playing, U-12 (with no E lock) makes a lot of sense. |
Precisely what I did. As Ron suggests, when I swapped to B6 uni there was nothing to learn or unlearn - I could just carry on and play.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2017 7:21 pm
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| Quote: |
| But the epiphany is that because it is a B6th, the scales line up on the same frets as the E9th. |
Get a Lever Lock, too.
It makes S12U more "Universal".
'Sounds like you are going to be spending alot of time on B6th. Nice! |
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