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Author Topic:  NEED HELP Playing with out an amp through in ear monitors
Pat Richardson


From:
Paxton, Illinois, USA
Post Posted 31 Aug 2017 5:11 am     Reply with quote

I need help as this is my first real steel gig and the band I am in has a Behringer air mixer that is controlled by a computer and they also are using the in ear monitors . problem is I can not get my steel to sound like a steel guitar instead of a slide guitar type thing. I am running a digetech RP-50 petal to give me some reverb and delay but have the EQ set flat on it. I need help with this . Is there a type of pre-amp I can get that will give me back my steel guitar voicing ? Or is there a cert-en setting on the Behringer that will help . And its not much help that the guy running sound does not have much experience doing so. again HELP !
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Josh Braun


From:
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Post Posted 31 Aug 2017 5:24 am     Reply with quote

I use in-ears occasionally, but I'm always mic'd through at least a 1x12 cab. My stage volume stays low, but the in-ears capture the actual amp & speaker interaction.

If you have to go direct, a preamp pedal like the Tech 21 Blonde or anything with an amp simulator will help a lot. Or, if you already have a preamp setup (say, a Mesa Studio Preamp or one of Brad Sarno's preamps), you can just grab the signal out of those before you go to the board.

Does the stage have to be dead silent, or do you guys just try and keep the stage volume low?
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Pat Richardson


From:
Paxton, Illinois, USA
Post Posted 31 Aug 2017 9:35 am     NEED HELP Playing with out an amp through in ear monitors Reply with quote

Josh, they have the stage volume really low in fact the drummer plays electronic drums and its nothing on on stage . If things dont get any better I might stick a shure 57 in front of my Nashville 112 and tell them to live with it .
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David Spires


From:
Nashville, TN USA
Post Posted 31 Aug 2017 9:45 am     Reply with quote

Pat,

These are the cases where an amp modeler makes the best of the situation - something that handles your effects, but also simulates the amp, it's EQ, speaker, mic, etc.

I've been really pleased with the Line 6 POD HD500X for this. There are many brands, types, prices, but it's been a great bang for the buck for me.

If you can convince them to let you mic that Nashville 112 and can keep your volume at a level that works for them, you'll probably be happiest - because you already have your head wrapped around that.

Best of luck!

David Spires
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Oakdale, California
Post Posted 31 Aug 2017 11:14 am     Reply with quote

If you want to use your amp, put it in front of you and angle it back at you. Or set it to your side. If you get a good sound back in your ears, you can even place the amp offstage if the stage volume is still too loud.
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Michael Haselman


From:
St. Paul
Post Posted 31 Aug 2017 7:55 pm     Reply with quote

For a couple years I used the Pod XT with Tommy Dodd presets for in-ears, FOH. Got lots of tone compliments and worked great for IEM. Made for easier set-up/teardown also. Still prefer my NV112 but worked very well in that situation.
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Carl Mesrobian


From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 6:45 am     Reply with quote

I've used in ears on stage with my Princeton Reverb on 3 and mic'ed. I found that the Peavey was just too much for the gig and would have to use it super low, which I found hard to do with a 210 watt amp.

One of the key things is to make sure the in ears are in your ears the right way. If they are not in your ears tight enough you lose tons of bottom and they can sound tinny.

Are the IEM custom fit or the stock plugs that are interchangeable? I use stock Westones and it takes a while to get used to the sound and I accepted the fact that what I heard was not what the FOH heard, and had to trust the sound engineer to get it right to the audience.

Two of the players had Kemper profilers, but they are $$$
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ajm


From:
Los Angeles
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 7:24 am     Reply with quote

Sort of off topic, but those in ear monitors scare the crap out of me.

I've never used them, but with my experiences with your typical "musicians", and them playing with their latest toys, and their general level of competence, all it would take would be one good shot of feedback right on your eardrums, and...........
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Josh Braun


From:
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 8:18 am     Reply with quote

All quality non-budget in ear monitors have limiters (or equivalent technology). This prevents those spikes Ajm is worried about. Don't buy a pair without this basic component!
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Drew Pierce


From:
Arkansas, USA
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 10:42 am     Reply with quote

Mic your amp. An SM57 will work (facing the speaker, not dangled from above), but the Sennheiser E609 is better. It is a side-address mic designed specifically to deal with the high sound pressure levels encountered in the face of a speaker.

I always mic my amp and basically use the amp as a reference monitor. That way, the sound person can mix as much or as little steel as needed in both the mains and monitors and you are sending the actual sound of your amp and any effects you're using.
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 12:49 pm     Reply with quote

If you have a modern steel amp (anything Peavey Session 500 or newer) or any amp with an effects loop, bring that amp and an extra cable, or if you have an extra plug lying around, solder it into a short circuit connecting tip to sleeve.
Plug the sound system into the preamp output, and plug the extra cable into the power amp input.
The power amp in has a switching jack, so this extra cable makes sure that the power amp doesn't see a signal, so the amp stays quiet, but the sound system gets your sound.
I hate multi-effects units, so I've never tried to learn to make them work. If it has a five band EQ, try giving it a bit of boost in the low end, a bit of cut around 800-1000, and a touch of boost above that.
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Drew Pierce


From:
Arkansas, USA
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 4:05 pm     Reply with quote

Lane, how is that easier than miking the amp?
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Drew Pierce
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 5:06 pm     Reply with quote

If the place doesn't want to hear the amps (the electronic drums are a clue), then my solution keeps the amp SILENT, but the board gets the tone you like.
If they let you run your amp, then mic it.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Drew Pierce


From:
Arkansas, USA
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 6:03 pm     Reply with quote

Good points.
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 6:09 pm     Reply with quote

In fact, that'd be my suggestion. Run the line out of the 112, and if they don't want the Peavey making noise onstage, mute it with a null signal on the power amp in.
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Dick Wood


From:
Springtown Texas, USA
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 6:52 pm     Reply with quote

The mixer should be able to EQ the FOH as well as the Auxes separately. Many of the bands I play with use these mixers and it isn't a problem to get whatever tone you want in the in-ears and out front too.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your question.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 4 Sep 2017 7:41 pm     Reply with quote

Dick Wood wrote:
The mixer should be able to EQ the FOH as well as the Auxes separately. Many of the bands I play with use these mixers and it isn't a problem to get whatever tone you want in the in-ears and out front too.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your question.


His problem was getting a pleasing EQ out of going direct.

Which gave me another chance to think on it.
Ask the engineer for a change in the EQ on your channel: a bit of bass boost, a bit of treble boost, and some cut in the mids or upper mids.
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Bryan Daste


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 5 Sep 2017 8:50 am     Reply with quote

Any decent amp modeler would do the trick. I use the Avid Eleven Rack & love it, but that may be too much gear. PodXT or similar would work. Dial in a setting at home with the in ears, and it should sound about the same onstage.
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Mitch Adelman


From:
Pennsylvania, USA
Post Posted 5 Sep 2017 6:43 pm     Reply with quote

I had a similiar problem with a quiet stage sound band so I took David Spires advice and got me a line 6 pod hd500x and programmed it for both guitar and steel.Took a while to find decent tones for them but the parametric eq in it helped to shape a more amp like tone using the Twin model. I use in ears directly hooked to pod output for my instruments but only one so I can hear the monitors as well. I didn't particularly like the onboard overdrive patches so I velcroed an earth drive on the expression pedal (which i don't use) after my telonics volume pedal. I like the tone as well as my 112, set up ease and the lack of complaints about my volume from my bandmates!Thanks for the tip David!
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Jonathan Cullifer


From:
Nashville, TN
Post Posted 6 Sep 2017 5:41 am     Reply with quote

My church has a couple of Kempers and I have no problem running through them. Saves me from having to carry an amp and I can 95% of the tone I need. The only person that notices the remaining 5% is me.

I have also achieved decent results with my Revelation directly into a sound system. Not perfect, but far better than running straight from the guitar to a DI.
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John Russell


From:
Austin, Texas
Post Posted 6 Sep 2017 11:26 am     No amp? Let's do it! Reply with quote

I'm playing a Patsy Cline show with the Behringer mixer and the X32Q app on iPads (or any smart phone). I'm running the steel thru my Boss EQ-7 and Boss RV3 pedals. The signal from there goes to the mixer onstage and we're getting the signal to our iPads via bluetooth. We have to log onto the house wireless router for that signal. It's a little above my pay grade how that works but the sound thru the in-ears is great and I control my EQ via the Boss EQ-7 and control the volume on my iPad. It displays a mixer with all the sends which I can control for my head set giving me the perfect mix of vocals, drums, piano, bass and steel.

I've used a similar system using the QSC software with a hard-wired connection running to the board and out to a powered monitor. With that system, I used an amp with a line out to the QSC mixer. I don't have to tell you which I prefer: not having to load an amp and a monitor speaker is wonderful.

With any luck, the days of worrying about what amp to use may be history. Very Happy
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Paddy Long


From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
Post Posted 13 Sep 2017 3:52 pm     Reply with quote

I usually go direct out of my rack - using a Telonics PRE1000 - stereo out, wet and dry .. I record like this a lot too - always sounds great.
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Godfrey Arthur


From:
Philippines
Post Posted 15 Sep 2017 3:46 am     Re: NEED HELP Playing with out an amp through in ear monito Reply with quote

Pat Richardson wrote:
using the in ear monitors . running a digetech RP-50


You didn't mention how your guitar is connected to the PA, you using an amp?

What IEM system are you using? They are not all created equal and vary in sound quality.

It might end up that no matter what pre amp you use out of your guitar it will still sound small in your IEM's.

But with your RP50 YOU COULD TRY SETTING IT TO THIS:

Global Cabinet Modeling

The RP50 includes cabinet modeling that can be enabled on all presets when running it into a mixer, recording device, or when using it with headphones.

This feature emulates a speaker cabinet connected to each of the amp models in all presets. Each amp model has a specific cabinet model that optimizes its sound when using the RP50 in this manner.

To enable Cabinet Modeling:

Press and hold the drums button when applying power to the RP50.

Wait until the display reads Cabinet On.

Release the Drums button.


You should be getting a better tone in Global if you're going out of the RP50 straight to the PA or even headphones. Otherwise there seems to be a delay time (latency) when plugging in headphones without the global cabinet modeling. This will make the RP50 act as if you're micing an amp speaker..

The RP50 although a neat little pedal (I have one) they are older technology and not as current on the interface with other gear nor the tones.

The only patches I find the most steel sounding is patch 3 and 43.

Everything else is distortion and ring modulator type effects.

Define your budget and we'd know what we're dealing with in another preamp upgrade.

The RP50 was a $50 pedal when it was out.






The output of the RP50 is TRS 1/4" and is stereo. So if you connect to a mixer you and your sound man would need to consider this.

You would have to have a TRS to split L/R cable.

But I don't think this output in global mode is line level for long cable runs. You would need 2 direct boxes one for left one for right to send a low impedance stereo signal to the PA otherwise you'll get signal loss running it high impedance straight out of the RP50 in case the mixer is out in the audience.

You could get stereo delay effects from using both sides of the L/R output which would mean TWO CHANNELS dedicated to your guitar at the mixer panned hard left and right at the mixer if there are enough channels to do this for your guitar.

Other than this, an upgrade in the preamp and/or the IEM system you're using is called for.

The Air mixer is pretty powerful from a computerized standpoint. You can get individual monitor mixes to each musician like having a stage side mixer with sound guy. Here is where your IEM's quality comes into play. And the knowledge of the sound guy. But it is difficult to tell the sound guy anything if he's out in the audience which is reason pro setups have another sound guy off the stage by the musicians running just the monitors.



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Patrick Huey


From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
Post Posted 7 Oct 2017 8:01 am     Reply with quote

Lane Gray wrote:
In fact, that'd be my suggestion. Run the line out of the 112, and if they don't want the Peavey making noise onstage, mute it with a null signal on the power amp in.


Lane,
I put a simple switch in line on my speaker cable on my N400 so I can kill the speaker when I'm running through my mini mixer and headphones for practice at home. Or you could simply hook up as you said and reach under and unplug the speaker wire right?
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