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Author Topic:  copedents
Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 1:53 am     Reply with quote

I have done quite a bit of book (or head if you like) study on PSG tunings and copedents, in preparation before buying a new PSG. I am starting from scratch so, I don't have anything to unlearn. I have decided that I'm a Day guy because it seems that, that is how my foot likes to rock.

That being said, I think I have zeroed in on John Hughey's copedent. It seems like a lot going on but: #1: as I said, there is nothing to unlearn and, #2, I can learn it a little at a time. I want to buy once and not have it always in the shop putting on new stuff and configurations I could've had put on at the outset.

Any thought on this are, as always, greatly appreciated.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 4:33 am     Reply with quote

Buy as many knee levers and foot pedals on the guitar as you can. You will want to experiment and change things later on. Plus this will give you extra pull rods, cranks and tuners to use where ever needed for later changes. I know this flies in the face of your desired approach to get it right the first time but there are lots of neat copedant changes our there. You can't fit them all into one tuning but you will get the urge to try them out later.

This was my latest D-10 copedant before I went to a S-12:


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Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 6:29 am     Reply with quote

Then there are people such as Lloyd Green that didn't need all the pedals and knee levers and Lloyd is highly regarded in the steel and music world.

The "A" and "B" pedals and the knee lever that lowers the 4th and 8th (E) strings will keep you busy for long time. I can get by playing gigs with just that, if needed.
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Jeff Harbour


From:
Western Ohio, USA
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 7:23 am     Reply with quote

Bobby, I don't think it's practical to expect to "buy once" with a perfect setup... while at the same time forseeing that you may develop personal preferences that will necessitate future copedant changes. Many players do simply buy a guitar with a 'factory' setup, and just learn that and never change. But, the fact that you have already made the 'Emmons vs. Day' consideration suggests that you will be one of us who heavily personalizes their steels. If that is true, then your best option is to get something that is easy for the player to make changes on, preferably still in production as well in case you need support. I can vouch that the GFI definitely fits that description, but other brands are likely great for that as well.

I have a standard 8+5 D10 that I have changed quite a bit over time. I personally am glad that I didn't have extra levers early on. A lot of changes that I thought about having back then I have since realized would've been redundant now that I can better visualize the chord theory applied to the neck.

To take Jack's point to the extreme... the best players can play either a D12 or a 6-string Non-Pedal and get just as much music out of either.
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John McClung


From:
Olympia WA, USA
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 7:35 am     Reply with quote

I second what Jeff Harbour said.
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Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 8:27 am     Reply with quote

I'm with John,,,and Jeff,,,and Jack,,,,the music is inside,,,the instrument is the door to let it out
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 2:15 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks for the input fellas. I do foresee wanting to change things later - having things customized to my own liking is kinda in my nature. ("buy as many pedals and knee levers as you can afford") - That's sort of what I meant - and I think Mr Hughey's has quite a few. I think that should keep me busy for a quite a while. and yes, I am definitely buying new - I'm looking at MSA, either a Legend XL or a Studio Pro. I just need to find out what the difference in an aluminum or a wood neck is. I know that Hughey usually played an aluminum Emmons but, a lot of guys w/the tone I love played wood neck Sho-Buds. Again, thanks for all the input - I don't think I can ever hear too much of it.
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Dale Rottacker


From:
Tacoma Washington, USA
Post Posted 10 Aug 2017 2:56 pm     Reply with quote

Bobby, pretty much what everybody else said... I played with my E’s both on the left side for the last 30 years, but started out with my E’s split... My D10 Mullen with 9x9 was set up this way with a staggered Left knee which I’d never had before.... I had some changes on my Right knee that I’d never had before, i.e. RKR along with the double stop on the 2nd string, a whole raise on 7 and a 1/2 lower on 9... on RKL both 1 and 2 being raised, a whole lower on 6 and then I added a whole lower on 9 as well.... When I bought my MSA XL Legend Signature (BTW, Great People) I bought Mitchell Smithey’s guitar which had the E’s split... his LVK lowered 6, whereas mine had lowered 5, his Left Staggered lowered 5, whereas mine lowered 7... I opted to have him pretty much leave everything as it was, except for adding 3 rods and sending me 3 extras.... the thinking was, that IF, I was unable to adjust to the split E’s configuration, that all I had to do was change 3 rods and I’d have exactly what I had on the Mullen and was used to that.... I gave up 3 Knee Levers on the C6th neck, cause I just don’t spend much time there, and would do well to make better sense of the standard C6th set up.... I’me getting pretty comfortable with the “New” set up, and find that I’ve even found a few things that I hadn’t with my old setup.... If you get a little out of your comfort level, you may find some new stuff.... and you’ll have to find other ways to play some of what you may have lost when changing to a different co-pedent.... It’s all good... BTW, I talked with Kyle this morning and had him send me a couple more rods that I can add to existing levers, and just deactivate them to give me the option of 2 different tunings on a given Knee Lever.... Kyle and Mitchell both did an awesome job of making me happy... they thought of stuff I hadn’t even thought to ask for.
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Don Sulesky


From:
Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH
Post Posted 11 Aug 2017 4:37 am     Reply with quote

I find less is more in many cases.
If your steel is loaded with pedals and knee lever changes, unless you are a seasoned pro, you'll spend most of your playing looking for the right change instead of playing what you feel. The real music is in your hands feed by your brain. You'll notice I did not say your heart. Your heart pumps the blood to your brain that sends that feeling to your hands.
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Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl
Post Posted 11 Aug 2017 6:38 am     Reply with quote

Listen to Don. He does a lot of Pedal Steel Instruction, both personal and written Tabs (a good place to buy some material).

Here is one of Don's forum posts about his material.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=230541
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 11 Aug 2017 7:38 am     Reply with quote

Jack Stoner wrote:
Listen to Don. He does a lot of Pedal Steel Instruction, both personal and written Tabs (a good place to buy some material).

Here is one of Don's forum posts about his material.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=230541

Thanks for this recommendation. Less is more than all I need for now. I am very busy with an S10 3x4 and I can't imagine navigating 9 pedals and 8 knee levers.
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post Posted 11 Aug 2017 2:55 pm     Reply with quote

That's great to hear Dale. I've corresponded w/Kyle and He and MSA seem to be great folks. I'm still looking for someone to say something about wood or aluminum necks - maybe I'll do another post.

Don & Jack, I hear what you are saying. I was always a less is better guy w/the 6-string: Stratocaster (strung heavy) w/a cord plugged into a 64 Super reverb and NO effects. I might use another guitar or another amp (although it was invariably a Fender or old Gibson, Supro or Magnatone) but, the heavy strings and NO effects were always a constant. People used to ask me what effect I was using and I'd tell them "a cord" haha. I want to have things available to me that, I may well never use. If I have some extra Knee levers and an extra pedal, no one is saying that I have to use them and, W/Hughy's copedant, all of the standard stuff is there. I can afford to do this now but, may not be able to in the future so, this is my thinking. I'm sure I'll be starting out w/the basics. Thanks again everyone.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Oakdale, California
Post Posted 11 Aug 2017 3:13 pm     Reply with quote

My recommendation would be a single 10 with 3 pedals and at least 3 levers. That way you can have the basics that have been standard for most big name players for decades. The 4th or 5th lever is optional in my book for a beginner. But don't make that turn you away from a deal on an S10 with 4 or 5 levers. Ignore them if you want to. Buy buying with 4 or 5 levers, you have options for the future (or now).
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Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl
Post Posted 12 Aug 2017 2:52 am     Reply with quote

Having many knee levers such as the Hughey setup will only "complicate the ham sandwich" even if you don't use them. Its nice to want it all but all is not a very good option for a beginner.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
Oakdale, California
Post Posted 12 Aug 2017 6:41 am     Reply with quote

Jack Stoner wrote:
Having many knee levers such as the Hughey setup will only "complicate the ham sandwich" even if you don't use them. Its nice to want it all but all is not a very good option for a beginner.


We'll have to agree to disagree. Those of us that can't afford to just up and buy a new guitar at will, or even send their guitar to have additions made later, would be better off buying what They might need in the future. I do agree about not needing a Hughey setup.
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Charley Bond


From:
Inola, OK, USA
Post Posted 12 Aug 2017 8:03 am     New Guitar Reply with quote

I like Tommy White's copedent, maybe on a SD10 MSA Legend, maybe a Uni-12. The SD-12 will keep you busy forever.


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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post Posted 13 Aug 2017 2:49 am     Reply with quote

This is all very good advice but, as for the single? I really kind of lean toward the C6 stuff so, I'm going to need a double for that. I've looked into the universal but I'm going to start out traditional. - all the guys I've listened to and loved over the years have been on D10's. I have a traditional double w/a definite C6 neck, and a definite E9 neck already sort of mapped out in my brain and it is what I've been studying. Thanks again.
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Drew Pierce


From:
Arkansas, USA
Post Posted 13 Aug 2017 6:19 pm     Reply with quote

A D10 with 8 and 4 can keep a person learning for a lifetime. I'd guess 3/4 is what most players use on E9 90% of the time. There's a world of music in that configuration, however it's set up. Catchy licks that sometimes get a lot of attention are often one KL change that almost never gets used for anything other than that one lick.

All that said, you have to watch out for what Buddy Emmons described as getting stuck playing "all my cliches". Sigh -- I wish I could play just one of them.
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Drew Pierce


From:
Arkansas, USA
Post Posted 13 Aug 2017 6:56 pm     Reply with quote

I've posted this before, but it's worth watching again when discussing what's possible with a basic 8/4 setup. Here, Tommy's basically using 5 and 2 on C6 on this cut, and in fact only kicking the the RKR occasionally. If the OP is into C6, this should get your pulse going. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZoPTJNmiCw
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Drew Pierce
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Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl
Post Posted 14 Aug 2017 2:30 am     Reply with quote

Get the highly configured guitar and then come back in a year and tell us how you aren't using most of the knee levers (if you are even still trying to learn pedal steel).
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 14 Aug 2017 6:48 am     Reply with quote

Doesn't anybody make an S10 that can be set up for C6?
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ajm


From:
Los Angeles
Post Posted 14 Aug 2017 7:37 am     Reply with quote

Bobby: Let's clear up some things.

Are you a total beginner?
Are you thinking of an S10 or a D10?
Are you thinking new or used?
And.....not that it really matters: How old are you?
How much free time do you have?

My total gut feeling with none of the above facts to base it on is: An S10 (or SD10) with 3P and 4K will have you busy for the better part of this lifetime.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 14 Aug 2017 7:58 am     Reply with quote

So far after my first year of learning to play, I have absolutely no interest in adding pedals or levers to my 3+4. Unless you have more time for fiddling with the mechanics of the instrument than you do for practicing and gigging, I doubt you will feel differently.
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 14 Aug 2017 9:49 am     Reply with quote

I can give you my experience. I started playing in April, bought a new GFI student model with 3&4. While this guitar has more than enough to start, there are a few changes I wish I had. I don't have the vertical lever which I think lowers 5,6&10. Also, I have been doing a lot of things raising the 1st a whole tone and the 2nd a half tone, which I think is a change a lot of folks have. The Franklin pedal is a nice change too.

However, you will play for a while. No matter what. And want something more real quick.....but the advice I was given is this, don't get F16 syndrome. That is, you learn to fly in a sesna not a fighter jets. You will need to walk before you can run. However, if you have the funds, get the most changes you can. Also. U need to decide on Emmons or Day first (John hughey used Day)
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Jim Morris


From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
Post Posted 14 Aug 2017 9:53 am     Reply with quote

But I practice at least 3-4 hours a day, so this is why I feel different than Fred. Its up to you. Are you are you will stick with it???? There are a lot of factors into it.... I did research for a while prior to purchasing. You'll get as many answers as guys on here, but fact is, you will always want to add more eventually.
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