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Topic: E9 tuning for 8 string. |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2017 7:06 am |
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| Bobby Nelson wrote: |
| I assume that there was something close to E9 tuning on the 8 string before pedals. Can any of ya'll give me the tuning that gets you close to it. I've been doing pretty well w/C6 on my back neck, and am wanting to do E9 on the front until I can get my pedal steel. |
We've seen a lot of posts suggesting tunings with E as the highest note. I don't see how you can get close to the sound of the pedal steel E9th without the high G#. The original Bud Isaacs pedal is a reverse slant on the high G# and B strings. It's the starting point.
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 9 Aug 2017 11:59 am
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It must be the challenge? Logically, if we try to duplicate the sounds of a pedal steel with a non-pedal guitar, why not play a pedal guitar? An 8 string with at least two floor pedals? One neck with two pedals would also give you a few open tunings. You can stand up or sit down to play.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2017 12:44 pm
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With the right tuning, the main challenge is learning to slant the bar - an essential technique in any case. To my ears, the "right tuning" needs to have a high G# string. That string really gets you in the ball park, making songs like Together Again sound more country than Hawaiian.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 9 Aug 2017 10:59 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| With the right tuning, the main challenge is learning to slant the bar - an essential technique in any case. To my ears, the "right tuning" needs to have a high G# string. That string really gets you in the ball park, making songs like Together Again sound more country than Hawaiian. |
Dyads (two note intervals)
Are easy on most tunings that have a 6th in them. B-G# is merely C-A interval. A 6th.
Why get pedal sounds on Lap Steel Guitar simply because it started there and you can do it just takes some study.
Intervals of 3rds and 6ths are the backbone of steel guitar. The challenge is doing it using triads.
Maybe b0b you could give a classic example and I'll see if I can get in the ballpark and sound like a pedal steel rather than Hawaiian.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 1:30 am
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Yes Dennis. I'm headed toward a D-10 - I'm having to save the $$ right now. I bought the console for $800.00 to get my right hand started till I can afford one. I'm looking to do this in retirement and it doesn't seem like there are a lot of jobs for lap steel haha.
I have tuned it to the Jules Ah See version of E13 and, I gotta tell ya, it's a very pretty chord but finding the ins and out of a chord structure is a bit of a challenge. Like I said up top, I've been at this since about May, and have worked mostly with C6 and have found it pretty easy to work around the 6th and get straight sounds. I'm just trying not to get locked into C6th tuning. Having a 60+ hour a week job and a wife doesn't leave me a lot of time haha. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 4:14 am
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Most of the triad bar slants that I hear aren't accurate in tune. I assume it's the middle note, since it can't be temper tuned as a pedal guitar can be. I've watched Emmons and Green play pedals along with occasional bar slants to grab an extra half step, but it's mostly two note grabs.
Some of the flavor of pedals can be gotten with non pedals, but side by side it can't be duplicated. Single notes and scales are the same. I have a 1949 D-8 Epiphone that I like to sit around with and work on scales within a pocket. I would take it to a band job, but the band plays such a mixture of Country and Rock, that I would have to switch around too often and little time to do it. I approach the pedal steel in the opposite direction and play non-pedal style on pedal steel when the song dictates.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 5:08 am
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
Most of the triad bar slants that I hear aren't accurate in tune. I assume it's the middle note, since it can't be temper tuned as a pedal guitar can be. I've watched Emmons and Green play pedals along with occasional bar slants to grab an extra half step, but it's mostly two note grabs.
Some of the flavor of pedals can be gotten with non pedals, but side by side it can't be duplicated. Single notes and scales are the same. I have a 1949 D-8 Epiphone that I like to sit around with and work on scales within a pocket. I would take it to a band job, but the band plays such a mixture of Country and Rock, that I would have to switch around too often and little time to do it. I approach the pedal steel in the opposite direction and play non-pedal style on pedal steel when the song dictates. |
I think with more practice most bar slants can be in tune. Even triads.
I agree the dyads or core note intervals convey the same feeling as a pedal and it is extremely hard to duplicate but NOT impossible and I'm now more than ever tempted to give it a go.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 6:12 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| With the right tuning, the main challenge is learning to slant the bar - an essential technique in any case. To my ears, the "right tuning" needs to have a high G# string. That string really gets you in the ball park, making songs like Together Again sound more country than Hawaiian. |
Yes, bar slants are THE essential lap steel technique...I don't know from pedals.
For me, this is also good advice in reverse - NOT using the high G# in my E tunings makes me sound more Hawaiian than country, which is what I want.
| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| Most of the triad bar slants that I hear aren't accurate in tune. I assume it's the middle note, since it can't be temper tuned as a pedal guitar can be. . |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
I think with more practice most bar slants can be in tune. Even triads.
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The trick with making triads, "fudge" slants, and such in tune is careful use of pressure on the middle or outside string with the tip of the rounded bar.
This allows you to tune the triad a bit better than when one does not try to use the bar tip.
Sure, it will never be as perfectly in tune as a mechanically made pedal steel triad, but, hey, that's what vibrato is for!
It all depends on what you want musically.
I'll sacrifice the perfection of tuning a mechanical pedal system offers for the feeling I get playing on a non-pedal steel.
Others prefer tuning perfection, well, that's why they make so many different instrument designs. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 8:07 am
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Another aspect of pedals is the ability to move a chord from one fret to another or several frets with continual sustain and keeping the melody notes of the song in the same position within the chord. Maybe possible non pedal with the melody note and one harmony below it, but I doubt it can be done with two harmony notes following the melody note? The flowing sound of pedal steel is also it's core sound.
A basic starting challenge might be Emmons "Blue Jade". The first two measures are played from one initial picking of two strings. Then try it with 3 strings.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 1:45 pm
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| I agree about PGS - that's where I've been headed from the start but, it's a matter of affording it. My ear is my best asset and I have found slants to be pretty easy to get in tune (even 3 or 4 note chords - the 4 note ones are way altered and sound a little out of whack even when played w/frets so, a little out of tune for a short burst is not really a problem). What I started with, on the slants was Together Again, and I can cop most of it in C6. I can even get some of the Lloyd Green type pedals up - pedals down Bop-a-dop-y-yop-a-dop sort of things w/it (although it's much harder to do). Like I've said, I've worked mainly w/C6 and it has proven to be pretty versatile. I'm just trying not to get my head locked into it. |
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Roy Thomson
From:
Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 3:09 pm
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Here's my approach to 8 string E9th non pedal.
Sound File MP3 of familiar country song.
http://picosong.com/vUMT
_________________
Custom Tabs Various Tunings
Courses Lap Steel, Pedal Steel |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2017 3:17 pm
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| That's great Roy. I'll try it. Thanks |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 11 Aug 2017 12:22 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
| Maybe b0b you could give a classic example and I'll see if I can get in the ballpark and sound like a pedal steel rather than Hawaiian. |
Together Again https://youtu.be/cYKVb7T1n2I?t=50s |
Nice song. I'll have a go.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 11 Aug 2017 1:04 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
| Maybe b0b you could give a classic example and I'll see if I can get in the ballpark and sound like a pedal steel rather than Hawaiian. |
Together Again https://youtu.be/cYKVb7T1n2I?t=50s |
Also does anyone have any exact pedal steel tab so I can attempt to reproduce as I don't want to miss a note. As I hear mainly Dyads and only one triad. So that would be appreciated.
Maybe b0b you have the exact tab/notation.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2017 1:09 pm
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Well, I just have two words to say: Buddy Emmons. And Billy Robinson. And Reece Anderson. I think playing music may have ruined my counting ability.
Here's a page from Scotty's steel store, St. Louis:
http://www.scottysmusic.com/tunings.htm
Herb Remington invented or copped the two highest retro-retarded-tuned strings and put them on the BOTTOM, as shown in that 8-string E13 tuning. Then Buddy Emmons moved them up top, which is still the common plan. But... but... Reece Anderson's 12 string non-pedal C6th duplicated the pedal steel C6th 10-string tuning, except he tunes the bottom C to a D note and then puts TWO retarded strings up top, the usual Maj7 and 9th:
D
B
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
D
And Reece Anderson unquestionably knew what he was doing.
https://b0b.com/tunings/MauriceAnderson.html#C6thLap
Greg Cutshaw has a whole mess about this up, SOMEWHERE in all this:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/:
And 10-string non-P monster Billy Robinson drops the low C, moves everything over so the F is low and adds only one retarded D note up top:
D
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
And Billy Robinson unquestionably knows what he is doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVGnOotJI6w
He explains how to make it imitate pedal pulls-to-unison here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSGkL_c5nT4
00:42 on. He does a lot of behind the bar pulls too.
I also agree that among the E13 family of tunings, the critical stretch in the middle runs up like, 5 to a 7th then NOT a root to 2nd to 3rd, like, say:
1 - E
2 - C#
3 - B
4 - G#
5 - F#
6 - D
7 - G#
8 - E
- that stuff from string 7 to string 4 gives you the R&B sliding "If 6 were 9" kinda moves without have to block in-between strings. Not the song, the 6th to 9th chordy moves.
A) I have given up trying to make any string smaller than a 0.014" get loud enough to do what I want, so I top out at a high E, pretty much.
B) So to definitively answer the question:
"Yup! Maybe so... and maybe not! Surely... or not.... A-ok! Never again! Right arm! Etc. And so forth!" |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2017 2:25 pm
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Haha! Thanks David. That's some great info. I need a day or so to sort this E13 thing out - right now all I see and hear is an awesome chord, and am having a bit of a time doing anything w/it. I'll spend a lil time w/it.
Stefan, Together Again is a great old song. I'm sure more than one steel player has used it to cut his teeth on. It was one of my first to get me dealing w/it - I was listening to it and Lost In The Feeling over and over, and quickly became aware that it might be a little easier right off the bat than Lost in The Feeling hahaha. I find that dragging the back of the bar on the lower diad down one note past the one I'm looking for and the coming back up one gives me a pretty neat emotion effect. It's (to me, but what do I know at this point?) mostly the lower diad that makes it more interesting - the higher pretty well just follows the melody and designates a point for the harmony to work from. These are just some points I've kind of become aware of in my noviecness - is that a word? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 11 Aug 2017 4:00 pm
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Bud's Bounce would be another good one to duplicate on E13.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Bill Brunt
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2017 5:14 pm
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| Roy Thomson wrote: |
Here's my approach to 8 string E9th non pedal.
Sound File MP3 of familiar country song. |
http://picosong.com/vUMT
Amazing talent.
Listening to your playing always makes me smile. |
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Bobby Nelson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2017 6:56 am
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| I'm trying your tuning today Roy. It wasn't very different than the Ah See, but seems to be a little easier to work with for me - thanks |
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Roy Thomson
From:
Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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Posted 13 Aug 2017 8:37 am
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To Bill Brunt:
Thank you my friend, you brought a smile to my face too. 
Bobby: Treat strings 3 - 8 as a simple E6 set up. (Same intervals as basic C6 only two tones higher in pitch.
Strings 1 and 2 are your chromatic strings so to speak or helper strings that come in real handy.
This set up goes "deep"..ie there's a lot in it.
Here is another clip "Kindly Keep It Country" which demos the potential.
http://picosong.com/vMdh
Good luck to you both.
Roy
_________________
Custom Tabs Various Tunings
Courses Lap Steel, Pedal Steel |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 13 Aug 2017 10:40 am 1st Chair players
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The 3 - 1st Chair players Mr. Mason is referencing --- Buddy Emmons who came up with most of the added outside strings Never called any string Retarded. 
Personally I see that statement as disrespectful verbal insult to the art form -- even though I am certain you do not mean any.
The old school folks who invented and placed them originally always called these added strings Chromatic,
even if they may be some other technical name in Normal Guitar thinking Theory.
Chromatic's is the accepted norm description in the Steel Guitar Universe.
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 13 Aug 2017 11:34 am
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I think he means Re-Entrant i.e. Out of Order
not retarded.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 13 Aug 2017 12:04 pm
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With a standard C6th tuning where on earth are the dominant inversions. They seem to be hugely missing???
Or am I missing it. Just the simple 7th chord I can't find all 4 basic inversions. R-3-b7.
Or 3rd, 5th, b7
Where are they? If you look at Reece's tuning which I love for all other M and m chords. It is missing some dominants and their more advanced alterations.
Maybe some insight as to how he would approach them?
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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