Unusual set-up

Chris Vowles · From: England

I have just bought my first PSG. It's a fixer-upper. It's a Bennett, made, I believe, in Scotland. It had some broken hardware, which I've had welded and machined, and I've carried out a repair to the volume pedal (an old-looking Sho-Bud).

Here's the thing: Now I've strung it & tuned it, I discover that the 3 pedals & 3 knee levers do nothing like what my tutor books tell me they should do. What I have is this:

Pedal A: raises string 7 (only)
Pedal B: raises 6 & 10
Pedal C: raises 3 & 7

KL (left) raises 4, lowers 9
KL (centre) lowers 6
KL (right) raises 8

It's pretty much impossible to determine whether each raise or lower is a whole tone or a semitone, as everything is wildly out of adjustment.

Before I start tearing it down & ordering parts to reconstruct it with a standard set-up, I just wanted to ask if anyone has come across the settings quoted. I bought it from a guy who'd had it for years but never done anything with it. Clearly, some previous owner made this unusual set-up. But my feeling is that, as a learner, I'd benefit from putting it into the set-up expected in my tutor books. Sorry for the long post!

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Detective work can be fun, but I'd just set to and standardise it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Malcolm McMaster · From: Beith Ayrshire Scotland

The guitar was built by Ron Bennett in Bebbington ( Near Liverpool) England, although now retired to Scotland.The guitars were very well built, along ShoBud lines, they are easy to work on, and should not give you any problems to change back to a standard Emmons or Day set up. Great little guitars and Ron was a gentleman to deal with.
_________________
MSA Millenium SD10, GK MB200, Sica 12inch cab, Joyo American Sound Pedal/ Jay Ganz Straight Ahead amp, Telonics 15inch in Peavey cab, Digitech RP150, Peterson tuner.Hilton volume pedal.Scott Dixon seat and guitar flight case.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

The only reason to dwell on and attempt to understand this setup would be because you admire the playing of the person who set it up this way and wish to understand and learn his system of thought and playing.

Which, per your post, has nothing to do with your situation. IMO any time spent with this will be wasted. You need to convert this, asap, to a conventional setup so that you can start learning and playing.

Unless you are intent on forging your own path. Which is totally good as long as you understand the difficulty.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Of course, ultimately you should set it up with the standard three pedals (ABC Emmons, or "CBA" Day) and some standard knees (two lowering and raising the Es on strings 8 and 4) and the third knee to your liking (I would go with lowering string 2 a whole-step and string 9 a half-step, but there are lots of options besides this).

Now, to try and make sense of what's on there. First, this assumes the guitar was meant to be tuned to standard E9. Since nothing raises string 5 from B-C#, I am a little skeptical about this. If everything else applies to standard E9, this would create a lot of awkward avoidance-grips around the note B in the middle of the tuning, while also losing some of the basic signature sounds of the E9th tuning. Likewise, the lack of lowers on strings 4 and 8 (E-D#) seems odd. Nevertheless, in the absence of any other suggested tuning, let's pretend it is indeed intended to be a standard E9 tuning. If so:

Pedal B (the middle pedal) likely raised 10 a whole-step (B-C#) and 6 a half-step (G#-A) for an A (or "IV") chord, giving you half of the changes you would get from the standard A and B pedals.

Pedal A, when engaged along with the previous pedal, adds a flatted seventh (G) and an A dominant seventh chord by raising sting 7 a half-step. That open B in the middle of the strings now adds a ninth to the dominant chord (strings 10-8-7-6-5-4/C#-E-G-A-B-E)

Pedal C seems to do something similar, adding the root of the A chord on string 3.

The knees seem less clear, but I'll take a stab:

LK: since there is no standard "C" (raising 4 and 5 a whole-tone each), I am guessing the fourth string raise on this lever is a whole step, which, in conjunction with Pedal B and C would give you much of the upper-string (6-3) effect of mashing the standard pedals B and C. Interesting If this lever lowers 9 a half-step, you would also get a nice dominant ninth chord through the lower and middle strings (C#-C#-E-G-A-B). Lowering 9 here is likely to eliminate the suspended D note in that chord. Guessing pretty wildly at this point.

CK: lowering sixth presumably is a half-step (to G) to change the open G chord from E major to E minor. There are so many other Gs though, that this could be a whole-tone lower (to F#) for the nice unison effect against string 7.

RK: This one is curious. it could raise 8 a half-step (E-F) for a diminished seventh chord on strings 10-9-8-6-(B-D-F-G#). Normally this change would combine in various ways with raising the Bs to C#, but there is no such change on the higher B (string 5). On the other hand, since the lower B raise (string 10 on pedal B) also pulls string 6 up to A, you would simultaneously have an augmented chord on 10-8-6 by combining pedal B and RK (C#-F-A).

Okay, that's my best quick and dirty guess. Now go change it all to standard E9 set up. Laughing

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

Is it possibly a Sacred Steel set up?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

When you got the guitar, did it have an E9 tuning on it? Are you telling us the correct string numbers? You say the B pedal raises 6 & 10. Could that be 5 & 10? Could C pedal be raising 3 & 6?

Maybe the previous owner put a C# on string 5. I believe Buddy did this (among other changes) to a 12 string guitar. That could explain the B pedal raising 6 and 10, both being the B strings. That would push the lower G# string down to string 7, thus explaining the C pedal raising 3 and 7.

Definitely set it back to a standard E9.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

there are bunch of very knowledgeable, very experienced steel players in England that have had a LOT of experience on a wide variety of steel guitar pull systems..Reach out to the guys there, and set that guitar up in a standard E9 tuning, as thats what the instruction courses assume you are using.. Over the decades, I have had at least 5 or 6 really oddball tunings through here that I had to change Quick!.. Unplayable nonsense to me... Some of those tunings made made NO sense to me, but someone played them.. Get the standard changes on there, .

If you can't do it yourself, there are guys that would be glad to help. Someone posted the guitar you have is well built, and fairly easy to work on. Good luck... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

This is all just an academic exercise; we all agree he should set it up to standard E9, right? Still, I like solving puzzles, so it's fun to try to make sense of the changes on there. Rich, I don't know squat about sacred steel tunings, maybe that's the key. Richard I like your hypothesis. So the tuning might have been (low to high): B-D-E-G#-B-C#-E-G#-D#-F#. Still would miss the B-C# note bend.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

This has definitely nothing to do with Sacred Steel tuning. A Sacred Steel does have certain things in common with E9th, it could be called an E7th. Here's a good explanation:
https://b0b.com/tunings/sacredsteel.html

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Chris
Join the British Steelies society if you are not already a member. Then contact John Davis - there's nothing he doesn't know about Bennett steels and if you need spare parts, John is also your man.
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Chris Vowles · From: England

Thank you all so much for your replies. I appreciate your time. So, here goes with the disassembly...

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Doh! Oh, right.

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Chris - don't bugger around. Contact John.
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Well solved, Rich! Do you also do crossword puzzles? Smile

_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic