| Author |
Topic: Tell me what is wrong with this idea (MSA lower problem is t |
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 1:19 pm |
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So those of us who work on the old MSA guitars often find that the raise scissor comes off the stop bar before the 6th string gets to F#.
How about putting one of these on the B pedal pullrod on the back side of the scissor, with a pull pin (and spacer tube if needed) to hold the raise scissor back until you hit the B pedal?
https://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/SPEC-Compression-Spring-41ML06
Usually obvious answers have flaws, so is this flawed, or clever?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 3:34 pm
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You're asking the B pedal rod to push on the scissor? I don't know enough about how the other end of the rod is secured to say if it will work.
The spring you have in mind says 'country of origin may vary'. A lot of those sold in the States are made right here in Redditch.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 3:50 pm
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I'll try to draw a picture, but the bellcrank end is immaterial (but well secured) and the end the other side of the scissor has the spacer tube and tuning nut.
So the spring at rest will be pushing the scissor both against the stop bar or the tuning nut when the bellcrank pulls the rod and scissor off the stop bar (although during raises the spring will be along for the ride).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 6:23 pm
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| Since the "lower returns to raise" behavior on old MSAs (and quite a few other PSGs) is caused by the lower-return-spring getting to tight too quickly because this spring is too short and attached too low relative to the linkage between the lower- and the raise-scissor, it is better to use the lower-rod itself to push the lower-scissor against the stop-plate, and remove the regular lower-return-spring. |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 6:33 pm
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This takes care of the problem.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, as well as some older MSAs, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Recently added a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored blue Rose, named the "Blue Bird" to the herd. Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic again that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also added a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 9:49 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Since the "lower returns to raise" behavior on old MSAs (and quite a few other PSGs) is caused by the lower-return-spring getting to tight too quickly because this spring is too short and attached too low relative to the linkage between the lower- and the raise-scissor, it is better to use the lower-rod itself to push the lower-scissor against the stop-plate, and remove the regular lower-return-spring. |
How does that affect the raise scissor when you're pulling the lowering scissor?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 9:55 pm
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Yes, Darvin. That will assuredly work.
The question was whether this solution will also work.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Jul 2017 9:59 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
You're asking the B pedal rod to push on the scissor? I don't know enough about how the other end of the rod is secured to say if it will work.
The spring you have in mind says 'country of origin may vary'. A lot of those sold in the States are made right here in Redditch. |
That's cool, Ian.
Here's a crude drawing, since I'm no draftsman
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jul 2017 2:28 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| How does that affect the raise scissor when you're pulling the lowering scissor? |
The lower-return-spring below the lower-rod gets too tight and becomes the pivot-point, and makes the linkage between lower- and raise-scissor pull too hard on the raise-scissor.
A longer return-spring will reduce the problem and allow for a lower lowering without affecting the raise-scissor, but getting the return-spring in line with - or on - the lower-rod itself eliminates this "built-in-reverse problem" completely. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Jul 2017 5:41 am
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How do you accomplish that?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jul 2017 9:29 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| How do you accomplish that? |
A couple of alternatives...
a) Slide a long tube onto the lower-rod. Add a shaft with free-wheeling bellcranks in where there is space, for that tube to rest against. Pull the freewheeling bellcrank towards the changer (stop-plate) with a long lower-return spring. The sliding tube between the lower-scissor and the freewheeling bellcrank will push the lower-scissor back to rest position.
b) When there is only one lower-rod on a string, such a long lower-return spring can be hooked onto that rod from below at a stop-collar, with another collar on the rod pushing the lower-scissor towards the rest position.
Both alternatives allow for a really long lower-return spring which evens out the resistance along the lower travel, and keep the lower-return spring in line with the lower-rod so no "lower reversing to raise" can take place. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 23 Jul 2017 9:44 am
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Just to add: on MSAs with round bellcrank shafts, adding freewheeling bellcranks is a piece of cake ... just don't tighten the bellcranks to the shaft. And, existing shafts can be used where there is space for extra bellcranks.
I use freewheeling bellcranks on existing shafts on my Dekleys - mainly for "timing": gearing up or gearing down pulls. Not much difference between my MSA and my Dekleys in there. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2017 9:04 pm
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| Sometimes for a quick fix I simply take a pair of side cutters and open the coils up a titch on the original springs- not elegant but does the job. I do try to not use the 2nd lowering hole (the one closest to the changer axle) in older MSA's because of the aforementioned problem but do find myself replacing the return springs when I have the problem with one not so tight. |
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Mitchell Smithey
From:
Dallas, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2017 10:58 am
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I have to cut a coil or two off the return springs on these older guitars sometimes.
They just get tired over the years! Like Jim said, use the lower hole farthest from the axle. Sometimes a different string gauge will help as well. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jul 2017 4:34 pm
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I just put two of these springs in my S-12.
They cost 90 cents each and work a treat.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jul 2017 6:01 pm
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Darvin, the adjustable return spring for an S-12 costs 87 bucks. This guitar needed two 89 cent springs, and two pull pins (and I already have the pins).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2017 7:45 pm
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$87 isn't a whole lot for a guitar worth $1600-$1800, but admittedly, you don't really need adjustable springs on all strings for most tunings. Looks to me like your method will work fine. You may have to tweak the stop collar a couple of times initially, but I can't see any reason it won't work.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, as well as some older MSAs, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Recently added a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored blue Rose, named the "Blue Bird" to the herd. Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic again that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also added a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks. |
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