Another newbie here. Best way to start C6?

Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

Hi there,
I've been reading this forum for weeks--so much good info here! In 2000 I attempted to take up pedal steel and was lucky enough to have 4 or 5 lessons with Charlie Norris at his shop. Not long after, I left for school and in the absence of a teacher I played my standard six string instead.

Well, I still love old country music and western swing. I have come to realize that most of the music I loved back when I attempted pedal steel was actually played on the lap steel. It's music I'd still love to play. So I bought an 8 string and would love to tackle C6 and to learn some hawaiian music as well as old country. I've already learned a lot from the forum and will order some of the recommended books right away.

One thing I'm not sure of is where to start with strings. I bought an 8 string since many recommend it for C6 and say you can always take two strings off to begin. It seems that most beginner books assume you are beginning with 6 strings. So what do you recommend? It seems i could take off the 1st and 8th strings, or the 7th and 8th, and learn on 6 strings at first. I worry that adding the strings later will be too confusing though. Does anyone think it's better to learn with all 8 strings on, even if I'm only playing 6 at first?

David Knutson · From: Cowichan Valley, Canada

Just my humble opinion here, Will, but if it was me I'd string it up with all 8 strings right from the get go. If you have a high "G" first string (in C6) you'll probably find it sneaking into your playing for some of the higher notes from the 6 string tuning. And if you tune the 8th string to "Bb" instead of "A", then you've got some nice fat 7th chords when you want them.
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Brad Davis · From: Texas, USA

String up all 8, but with the E on top. This is the approach I'm taking to learning and quickly finding uses for the bass strings. If you use a lot of 6 string C6 material youâ€™ll hardly notice the bottom 2 strings. This IMO also forces you to learn to find tunes in the 6th tuning and not just in the Dobro-like 1-3-5 triad if you had G on top. In the rare event you really need the 5th on top there is a nasty reverse slant you can use. You can also easily retune to A6 to get a 5th on top tuning. Later you can try the high C6, or get more necks/guitars and use both.

Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

Hey Brad and David, thanks for the advice!

David, I like the idea of having a 7th chord--I wouldn't have thought of having the 7th in the bass. Just to be clear, you're saying to string it up, highest to lowest:
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
Bb

So for this tuning I would just ignore the top and bottom strings for the initial 6-string literature, I assume.

Brad, if I understand you, you're saying to tune the highest strings to the standard 6-string C6 tuning. What would you suggest for the bottom two strings?

Speaking of strings...Do most players buy individual strings to make sets? I see the John Pearse 8 string set, which seems farily close to what Cindy Cashdollar uses. But, I've also read some other suggestions on gauges with no clear idea of where to get a set. I'm guessing i just need to write them down and go to the local shop for individual strings.

David Knutson · From: Cowichan Valley, Canada

Yes Will, that would be my C6 tuning exactly. I tend to prefer A6, so that top string doesn't sound quite so "whiny".
If you go with the "E" on top in C6, you could still have a Bb seventh string and put a low C on eighth. I believe that is Mike Neer's tuning of choice, and you can't go too far wrong following Mike.
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Keith Glendinning · From: United Kingdom

Will,
I highly recommend buying any of Doug Beaumier's C6 books and watching him on YouTube. I started on C6 6 String, but quickly moved to an 8 String. I find the top string easy to use rather than going up the neck with a 6 string.
Keith.

Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

Thanks for the reply Keith. After reading a lot of this forum, I ordered Doug's first book and Andy Volk's C6 book. Looking forward to digging in on them!

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Will, thanks for ordering my book! I shipped it a couple of days ago and it's scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, Saturday.

When you go through the book, keep in mind that the songs are in alphabetical order, not from easy to harder. So I suggest that you start with slower songs that have few or no bar slants... Amazing Grace, Away in a Manger, Can't Help Falling in Love, Greensleeves. And read over the introductory material that explains how to read the tablature and the repeat signs in the music. It's also a good idea to load the CD audio onto your computer and play the songs on your computer, iPhone, iPad, etc. Digital files are forever, but CDs will eventually wear out. Thanks again!
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Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

Thanks for the tips, Doug! I'll start with the easy tunes for sure.

Brad Davis · From: Texas, USA

Will, a simple approach to what is called "low C6" is simply to repeat the pattern for the bottom 2 strings.

So high to low would be:

E C A G E C A G

There's a simple modification to make it a C6/A7 blended tuning a la Jerry Byrd by raising the 6th string to C#. Then Kayton Roberts puts a deep bass A down on the bottom. If you use material like the Cindy Cashdollar Western Swing DVDs she uses high C6 with a 5th (G) on top. You can work around this from low C6 with the 1-2 reverse slant I mentioned (Jerry Byrd again), moving up the neck to find your notes, or just put the 5th on top to match her high C6. But most C6 learning material is for 6 string only and would fit right into the top 6 strings of low C6. As I mentioned, by just re-tuning a few strings slightly (sharpen the C's, flatten the G's) this tuning converts directly to A6 which does have a 5th on top and was also widely used by classic country steel players in the 40s and 50s.

I'm a total amateur myself. In my case I've played (poorly) standard high G Dobro for years and am pretty familiar with melodies and slants in a 1-3-5 config. I'm forcing myself not to overly resort to that triad as I learn 6 and 13 tunings, and I think the approach is working. I see them as two similar but different instruments and don't want to just transfer my Dobro licks over, I want to learn to play lap steel. I want to be able to find melodies by ear within a 6th tuning the way I do on other instruments, and I've gotten to the point where I've sat down and noodled out multiple tunes without the 5th on top. Also if you like classic country like I do, consider some of my favorites who tend to use a 3rd on top for their preferred tunings: Don Helms, Roy Wiggins, Jerry Byrd, Kayton Roberts. While there are several equally great players who do use a 5th on top, these guys are quite adept at finding the melody without it. Either way is fine, but those are just my own reasons for focusing on low C6.

Andy Volk's C6 book is great, lots of important theory and exercises. I'm starting to work through it myself. Doug I'm meaning to get around to ordering your books soon!

Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

Thanks for the info, Brad!

I've been playing a lot the last few days and have a question about bar length and grip. In watching some Cindy Cashdollar segments and the Georgeboards videos, it seems that with my index finger slightly arched on top of the bar, the butt end of it should be at about the first joint where the finger meets the palm. I have big hands though and my index would have to be extremely arched to hold my 2-15/16" bar that way. Should I consider trying a longer bar? I see I can order any length of Bullet Bar. I was wondering if something more like a 3-1/8" would be a good idea, or if I should just use what I have.

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

I recommend going with the 8 strings right away, it only takes about 15 minutes to realize 8 is an extension of 6 note wise anyway.

One little thing I learned along the way , is : with 8 the lower string acts as a sort of sawhorse - fulcrum to help hold the bar when playing on the lower strings, if that makes any since. Because when playing on lower strings , it is best to pull the bar back towards your body to keep the "Action Zone" on the intended string-s.

Yes that means you are actually holding the bar mostly off of the strings , and keeping the 1st inch or so of the flat beyond the rounded tip over the intended playing area "Action Zone".

It takes a little practice , but simply flex the 1st knuckle of the thumb to get the nail portion fleshy edge under the bar end to help support it. Before you know it , you will automatically do this little move every time you pull the bar butt end off of the strings.

We use the Bullet Bar Georgeboards model 3-1/4 length X 7/8 ( 3" of flat) so it will cover all 8 strings for a full strum across, - you can always use plenty of bars though.

Hope this Helps you and others.
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Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

I received my Jim Burden bar and it feels great. Since I have a dunlop that is 3/4" by 2 15/16" long I figured I'd take advantage of Jim's custom sizes. He made me a 3/4" bar at 3 1/8", and the extra length really seems to make it easier to hold steady.

I've been playing with 8 strings on the guitar (occasionally using the high G, but mostly ignoring the low A). My mind is getting used to reading the 6 string tab, but then I tried some 8 string tab and i've been slowed down by it. I might have to go draw in two empty lines on all of Doug's tab charts!

David M Brown · From: California, USA

David M Brown · From: California, USA

Will Slack · From: Texas, USA

I think a new tuning might be too much for me just yet. Plus between Doug's book and the Cindy Cashdollar video I picked up, I'm getting to play a few Don Helms parts already, even if not in the original tuning.

David M Brown · From: California, USA

Brad Davis · From: Texas, USA

Don Helms' E6 8-string tuning is almost exactly like low C6, just 4 half-steps higher. You can vary the tuning of the bottom 2 strings but it doesn't matter much. The high timbre really cuts through the mix and sounds great on some tunes. It is really the place to be doing Helms and Wiggins stuff. This was probably another reason I stuck with low C6, the switch between it and E6 is so simple and gives me options to get in the right timbre and right key for a song based on how its typically performed or where the singer needs it.

Alternatively A6 is almost exactly like high C6, just 3 half-steps lower, and a lot of people prefer it. Between these 4 tunings there's little difference, you just shift your grips up or down a string and may or may not have a 5th on top or lose a bass string. There's no rush, but once you're comfortable with C6 adding these others will quickly expand your tonal range, particularly with a multi-neck guitar. Then you could move on to rather different tunings if you desire.

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