Intonation Troubles on New Steel

Chris Stainback · From: Washington, USA

Hey folks, looking for some tips on how to adjust to a new steel. I've been playing a beautiful old Maggie that I'm putting into semi-retirement, as I like it too much to chance any unfortunate occurance at a gig.
I comissioned a build from Ryan Rukavina (I pestered that poor guy soooo much) but am having trouble with my intonation, in a way that I've never had with the 4-5 lap steels I've owned.

I'm trying my best to be consistant in where/how I place it on my lap, but am stil fighting to keep chords in tune. I'm also pretty consistantly playing a bit flat in the higher register. The scale length is supposed to be the same, and it sure looks it. Any ideas?

Reading up on John Ely's tuning system which seems like it could be a step in the right direction but my pedestrian ear has never really had a problem with 440 tuning before.

Thanks a bunch.

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

Have you measured the scale length on the new guitar?

Also, a softer-feeling set of strings might make you push the steel out of tune with hand pressure. Are you using the same strings?
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35

Chris Stainback · From: Washington, USA

they both measure out right at 22.5in. I changed the strings this week to see if they could be a factor but am still stuggling. To be honest I don't know what strings I put on the Magnatone last but on the Rukavina I popped on GHS C6 custom shop. I'm still in that finding what I like the most stage.To the touch the string tension feels to be the roughly same. Thanks Rick!

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

If you measure the scale from the nut to the 12th fret, the measurement from the 12th fret to the bridge has to be the same. If not, maybe the fret board isn't correct for the scale...?? Or the bridge isn't in the correct place..? just some checks you can make...

L. Bogue Sandberg · From: Chassell, Michigan, USA

Could it be a difference in string height off the fret board? It changes the view of the bar relative to the fret, especially closer to the nut. I have a problem going between my 2007 resonator with a ~ 7/16" string height and a 1949 National electric not much over 1/4". The apparent "gap" between the bottom of the steel and the fret has to be larger on the resonator.

With your tuner on, check harmonics to confirm correct bridge and fret placements. Then check your bar positions against the tuner at frets 1 to 12. The problem goes away for me as I go up the neck because the view becomes the same, regardless of string height.

I'm usually next to our 13 yr. old fiddle player blessed with perfect pitch. She's a very patient kid.

Bogue

Chris Stainback · From: Washington, USA

Bouge, thanks I think you're on the right track. parrallax definately seems to be at play here. despite the scale being the virtually the same one rests at exatly 1/2'' and the other roughly 1/3'' for string height. I hadn't even noticed they were much different.
The harmonics seem to ring true right where they should. Seems we have opposite problems, visually playing low on the neck looks correct but as I move up i'll have to play what by appearance would be sharp to stay in tune. It's been a fews years now, it's frustrating to feel like a beginer again.

Listening back to rehearsals my band has been pretty patient too. Embarassed

Also the angle of the hand changes as my arm comes closer to my body moving up the neck, making it difficult to keep notes in tune with eachother. It feels like a gental reverse slant is needed to keep the chord in tune.

Thanks for the help fellas, I'm confident Ryan got it right and it's simply a matter of me getting more time behind the instrument. I guess this may become more of a technique issue on my part.

While we're here, any reccomendations of tuners? Perhaps one that displays in cents so I can try the John Ely's tunig offset. I've got a lot of practices ahead of me with the tuner on...

L. Bogue Sandberg · From: Chassell, Michigan, USA

I have a Korg TM-50 on the end of the stand for my National, with a little 1/4 inch Y-cable that feeds both the tuner and the amp. The TM-50 has a cents scale on the dial and allows sweetening the 3rds and 6ths along the lines of John Ely's recommendations.

Bogue

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

Stefan Robertson · From: Hertfordshire, UK

Two things at play here.

Yes a tuner like this will give you accurate tuning.

https://ilapsteel.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/peterson-strobo-plus-hd-sp-1/

But if the strings are closer to the fretboard the parallax effect becomes less.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com

"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"

Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

Unlike the frets on a regular guitar, the fret lines on a steel are at best reference points. Your ear should tell you when the bar has reached the exact point where the desired pitch is achieved There will always be a degree of paralax to deal with when you try to "eye" the bar into that exact position. It really helped me when I learned to stop trying to zero the bar into position with my eyes. I have heard that Buddy Emmons used to play a steel with no fret board, and I have heard that some players even practice playing blindfolded to sharpen their intonation skills.

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

Playing into a setup that lets you hear yourself and the music in headphones can be helpful. Keep the volume down and play simple, clean stuff. You can really hear how in-tune you are.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35

Stefan Robertson · From: Hertfordshire, UK

If:

You are finding that the markings are way off may simply be an improperly placed fretboard. So despite the nut and bridge being accurate you may need to replace it.

Or just get used to it.

There is no intonation to set. As long as the distance between the nut and the bridge are even and exact the notes will be in the correct position. If even the fretboard was shifted 1mm out the marking will be OFF.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com

"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist"

Chris Stainback · From: Washington, USA

Thanks Rick that headphone idea sounds like a good tip for improving. I'll have to try that! edit: tried the angling the steel on my lap before too, at the point I have upper range in tune (in a neutral hand position) the tilt is pretty extreme and I'd have to slant to keep the lower range in tune. Again, not a problem I had with my other steels.
Believe it or not, this is not my first fretless instrument. I played an unlined fretless bass for years, but sublte intonation issuses seem a little less noticeable in that range and chording was practically non-existant.
I don't want constantly be trying to correct a swell or be that guy that puts vibrato on everything to cover up my poor technique.
I hear ya Larry, but as a working stiff with a day job I doubt my form will ever come close the working pros who do this for a living. I would just love to be as adequate on this steel as my last. Confused

Last ditch effort, if I were to take off the same amount of material from the nut and the bidge, (say 1/6'') I wouldn't be changing effective the string length and could reduce that parallax. Right, same thing just lower? That'd be quite the can o' worms with pickup height and everything.
Thanks again everybody.

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