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Topic: II - V patterns for C6/A6 |
Michael James
From:
La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 9:04 pm |
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I guess I'm a little biased on the the study of rhythm and how it pertains melody, form and dynamics ect...
As a young student as directed by my teachers I spend the first six or so years of my studies completely focused on harmonic concepts, scales, arpeggios and harmonic application. I became a decent technician on guitar because I believed this was the answer as prescribed by my teachers.
After I mastered all the necessary tools I would then get comments from my teachers like: play less notes, don't play so many arpeggios, land on "cool notes", be more melodic, leave space ect.. and I would then try to do those things only to have them send me home with some encouraging words of hope, only to repeat this process the next week. I was very frustrated with myself.
One thing I did that really helped is I listened a lot to jazz. This influence got me to a point were I could sound acceptable, but my progress became stagnant.
When I started teaching at the University, a percussionist colleague of mine talked to me about rhythmic choices, he said when he played drums, with me soling, he didn't feel he could be responsive to what I was doing because rhythmically I wasn't doing anything interesting and I had a very narrow concept of rhythm.
It was harsh, but it was true. He then began to work with me on expanding my rhythmic concepts, pushing me to play thing in more organized and complex way.
As a simple example he would make me play a five 8th note rhythmic or harmonic phrases over a repeating progression. As you know five doesn't divide evenly into eight, and the five note phrase wont come full circle until you're six measures in. It was so hard at first.
He taught me to make ideas that fit the form but pushed the boundaries, how to use call and response ect...
I taught and played with him regularly for 10 years. I still do play with him some. He is one of the greatest teachers I've had. And he never told what notes to play.
I post on this forum only to help. So that maybe someone doesn't have to go through what I did. Sometime it feels like no good dead goes unpunished. I often don't post because of this.
mj |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 12:24 am
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Thanks Guys
I have been studying Mark Levine Jazz theory book but its a hell of a lot of theory with small snippets and examples here and there but not getting connecting lines. Just random examples of licks that don't spell out the progression being used. Frustrated..
The first 3 chapters we must've studied 130 different examples of chord progressions and licks.
To my ear no point. I want to know the theory that makes sense.
Example in a 2-5-1 - the way I think
1st method is X - this connects the Dm7-G7-CM7 in a massive long run which is simply the Major Bebop mode with X additional Chromaticism added in.
etc. Why can't they be specific. Or like Play from the b3 of the Dorian scale to the Root up and then come down using the Lydian scale. or WHATEVER.
I literally am frustrated as I am learning more on my own than the countless hours of transcription or meaningless books. Or learn your arpeggios and then I listen to players and arpeggios are connected with a slurry of rapid notes and I know they must be using some scale form and development that can be explained.
HELP.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 2:37 am
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Michael, we all appreciate what you have to say and your informed opinion. This is is a complex topic with lots of opinions - opinions that may conflict, but more often, overlap. You've certainly had a good teacher in Baker. I first heard the phrase "No good deed goes unpunished" from one of my video clients who amusedly called me to tell me that a former colleague whom I had introduced her to both got my name wrong and had made a terrible impression in general on this particular client. But I digress ... so anyway, we are all at various stages of the improvisation journey and there's a crossroads every two feet! Thanks for your contributions.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 3:28 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Why can't they be specific. |
Because theory follows practice and sometimes they are trying to catch the wind with a butterfly net. When finding concise examples is a problem, you have to wonder.
A suggestion out of left field, Stephan. Choose a longish solo that you like with a chord progression that is clear to you, put down your instrument and learn to sing it so that you know every twist and turn. Burn the sound of it into your brain or at least lay down sufficient myelin around the neural pathways so it never goes away. Whether you learn to play it or not is not that important, but do that again to another solo.
Yes, Music is a language but humans learn languages by hearing and doing rather than by taking classes in grammar.
My 2 cents. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:23 am
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| Guy Cundell wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Why can't they be specific. |
Because theory follows practice and sometimes they are trying to catch the wind with a butterfly net. When finding concise examples is a problem, you have to wonder.
A suggestion out of left field, Stephan. Choose a longish solo that you like with a chord progression that is clear to you, put down your instrument and learn to sing it so that you know every twist and turn. Burn the sound of it into your brain or at least lay down sufficient myelin around the neural pathways so it never goes away. Whether you learn to play it or not is not that important, but do that again to another solo.
Yes, Music is a language but humans learn languages by hearing and doing rather than by taking classes in grammar.
My 2 cents. |
Ok so essentially transcribe a long solo I like - understand the chord progressions and regurgitate and learn to re-apply. I will give it a go this evening.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:29 am
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[quote="Guy Cundell"]
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Why can't they be specific. |
Because theory follows practice and sometimes they are trying to catch the wind with a butterfly net. If finding concise examples is a problem, you have to wonder.
A suggestion out of left field that might work for you, Stephan. Choose a longish solo that you like with a chord progression that is clear to you, put down your instrument and learn to sing it so that you know every twist and turn. Burn the sound of it into your brain or at least lay down sufficient myelin around the neural pathways so it never goes away. It will take a bit of work. Whether you learn to play it or not is not that important, but do that again to another solo.
Yes, Music is a language and humans learn languages by hearing and doing initially rather than by taking classes in grammar.
I lived in Germany in 1979 and my German was pretty terrible. The folks were very friendly and communicative so we mostly spoke English. But it seems that they had learned from the same text book because they all used the same stiff formal phrases like 'In former times....'. Kind of similar to graduates from some jazz schools.
My 2 cents. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:33 am
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Whoops. Got caught, mid edit.
Anyway, it's a process. And, no, it's not transcribing which is, by definition, writing it down.
Overnight may not give you the result you want but can you see the intention? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 5:04 am
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The challenge is not just in learning the language, but in making it playable on the steel guitar. That is where the difficulty is. I understand the idiom and language full well, but making the lines flow on the steel guitar is full of unique challenges. That is the individual struggle that we all face, and we all will do it differently.
As an example, I was told that Emmons played with his thumb and 2nd finger most of the time--I can't make that work in the same way, so I had to adjust and develop what is comfortable for me. Chromaticism is another another intense challenge in linear playing on steel guitar. Developing a sense of flow on those types of lines requires a ton of practice.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 5:18 am
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I just want to thank everyone for their input on the subject of learning (and teaching) jazz.
I've been teaching at music camps and other situations for some years now, and it is a challenge to find ways to explain concepts to players in a way that helps them learn but does not lock them in.
Although most of this discussion has centered on learning modern (bop) jazz, I find a historical approach is very useful.
Instead of trying to teach people how to play bop in a vacuum, I have advocated teaching jazz the way the music itself developed.
The first players of bop came out of swing - they did not invent this music on their own "out of nowhere".
So one way to teach jazz is to follow the historical development.
I often express it this way:
You really can't play bop if you cannot play swing.
You really can't play swing if you cannot play Dixieland (aka trad jazz, etc.)
You can't play Dixieland unless you can play the blues.
So that's the way to learn modern jazz - learn blues, then Dixieland, then swing, then you will have the tools needed to learn the dialect of bebop.
And you cannot do ANY of it unless you listen to a LOT of good jazz of all styles.
One more thing - to learn to truly improvise, as opposed to stringing together pre-worked out patterns and licks - you must give yourself permission to play a lot of wrong notes and ideas that don't work. That's how you find the ones that do work!
Best of luck to all! |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 5:23 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| The challenge is not just in learning the language, but in making it playable on the steel guitar. That is where the difficulty is. I understand the idiom and language full well, but making the lines flow on the steel guitar is full of unique challenges. . |
Mike, this is true, but honestly ALL jazz instrumentalist have this problem.
There's just a lot less of us playing jazz steel than there are sax, piano, trumpet, guitar and bass players.
They have all the teaching materials and decades of tradition going for them.
But still, every player has to do the technical work themselves on whatever instrument. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 5:37 am
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So much excellent advice on here its humbling.
But with regards to chromaticism. You guys get what I mean when I say long chromatic lines that outline the progression.
There must be some clear concise concepts by now surely.
I know so little and am finding some but wish there was a source that gave a comprehensive approach to achieving this.
Hell if Andreas Oberg believes that modes, arpeggios connected works there must be something there.
When he and other play they don't play the arpeggios or the modes its like a blend of the two in one long run that outlines 32 bars of music in a continuous never-ending run up and down.
Surely they are not thinking chord by chord at the speed they play so they must be using a theory approach and that is what I am after. As the way I learn is different to some in that I can't learn something happily until I know the reason WHY?
Once I know the Why and how I can then re-apply. I just am. not sure why there is no clear idea.
For example If I was playing Cherokee in the Key of C how would I approach a super long connected line that outlines the chord changes from beginning to end.
What approach to use I guess is what I'm asking?
I have my Major/Minor/Dominant arpeggios down over 2 octaves but How to get that fluid sound?
Sorry if I'm rambling its the frustration talking so please be patient with me as I don't know what to do with the knowledge I have and that's what's frustrating.
Example: Do I start an arpeggio for the first bar and then when I get to the M7 pick up a mode that will work over the chords used in Bar 2 .
I'm so lost. I learnt a lick that outlines a basic 2-5-1 using a lydian scale ending on the b9. So far its the only example I found but its lacking chromaticism but it does what I was asking as it outlines ALL the chord changes.
Thoughts.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Einar Baldursson
From:
Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 6:45 am
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Lots of good advice in this thread and not much to add really. Learning to improvise is a very personal journey and there are no shortcuts, no pre-packaged readymade language to apply even though many books try to make you believe so. What they can give you is the craft but craft needs to be elevated to art. As Jim Hall said - think of all these scales and arpeggios and licks as a pile of stones on the ground and any improvisor's job is to build something out of it, be it a cathedral or a humble house. Also, a big part of any improvisor's sound and personality is determined by his or her limitations. Bill Frisell wanted to play and sound like John McLaughlin in his formative years but could never attain that kind of speed and precision. So he became Bill Frisell instead. What that tells me is to be forgiving to myself and instead of just trying to get rid of my limitations and be able to play "everything" I should try to use them to my advantage, let them become a part of my voice.
Other than that playing with others is the single most important thing. Practicing at home is one thing but it's when playing with other people we can find solutions that elude us in the practice room.
_________________
Wherever You Go, There You Are |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 8:34 am
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Stefan
Try the book I suggested earlier.
Seriously
Very specific, step by step, great examples
Everything you are frustrated about is addressed
Seriously
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 8:58 am
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| Einar Baldursson wrote: |
| Also, a big part of any improvisor's sound and personality is determined by his or her limitations. Bill Frisell wanted to play and sound like John McLaughlin in his formative years but could never attain that kind of speed and precision. So he became Bill Frisell instead.. |
Great story - and it's part of another one.
Both John McLaughlin and Alan Holdsworth were trying to sound like Coltrane in his "sheets of sound" style period.
McLaughlin developed serious picking chops...while Holdsworth took legato playing to a new level.
Neither sounded like Trane...both were great in their own style.
One of my teachers said "why you wanna sound like somebody else? You gonna be on the radio one night and your momma ain't gonna know it's you?" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 9:01 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Once I know the Why and how I can then re-apply. I just am. not sure why there is no clear idea.
For example If I was playing Cherokee in the Key of C how would I approach a super long connected line that outlines the chord changes from beginning to end.
What approach to use I guess is what I'm asking?
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Use your own.
All of these things are tools to use on your musical path.
An example:
What sort of line would you sing on "Cherokee"?
That's a good starting place. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 6 Jul 2017 3:43 am
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I was raised more on Fusion than bebop--bebop was that thing that everyone told me I had to learn in order to play jazz ("get the Omnibook""), and they were right. In fact, a lot of Fusion guitar players were missing that element from their playing. But guys like Pat Martino, Mike Stern, John Scofield, they had it. I wanted some of what they had.
I took some lessons with some really great players just to see what it took to be on their level and I was always met with the harsh reality. But I was a good guitar player, just not on that level. Deep down, I always aspired to be the Rock guy who knew some cool stuff and used it right.
So, I still study the music deeply by transcribing ideas, and thinking about the phrasing more than just the notes. Some time spent enamored with the Lennie Tristano school of learning has given me a lot of insight as well. In particular, the idea of composing solos to sound exactly the way you would want to play them has really opened my mind up to listening more deeply to my own ideas. But those ideas have to be propagated from the source. Once you get them into your own hearing and know what they are, they are your tools to use.
PS: One of the first straight ahead records that got to me was Miles' My Funny Valentine, which is a live recording. The stuff Herbie Hancock played on Stella By Starlight blew my mind. I plan on signing up for the Herbie Hancock Jazz masterclass which is soon to be available. I'm so interested in his approach.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2017 8:15 am
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| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
Stefan
Try the book I suggested earlier.
Seriously
Very specific, step by step, great examples
Everything you are frustrated about is addressed
Seriously |
I'm no great jazz player but this book has really helped me as well. It organizes lines into basic "outlines" and then expands upon those by using particulr devices (rhythmic variation, octave displacement etc) and provides real world examples from top players. Just getting a few of these under your belt goes a long way. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 6 Jul 2017 1:28 pm
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Thanks guys.
I'm assuming I get the Omnibook for instruments in C.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2017 4:52 pm
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Thanks guys.
I'm assuming I get the Omnibook for instruments in C. |
Good luck with the Omnibook. It may be an overreach for you at this point in your evolution. I know it was for me. I'd start with something a lot more basic and work your way up to Bird.
That and $3.50 will buy you a cup of burnt coffee at Starbucks,...
Bill |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2017 4:18 am
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| Bill Leff wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
Thanks guys.
I'm assuming I get the Omnibook for instruments in C. |
Good luck with the Omnibook. It may be an overreach for you at this point in your evolution. I know it was for me. I'd start with something a lot more basic and work your way up to Bird.
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The Onmibook is great for learning the phrasing and style of bebop.
But you have to be able to play Dixieland and Swing first. Otherwise it is an overreach.
The C book is the concert key - but the charts are all in more string friendly "sharp keys" in the Eb book.
So that depends if you want to learn tunes in the original keys or not. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 8 Jul 2017 3:11 am
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| David M Brown wrote: |
The C book is the concert key - but the charts are all in more string friendly "sharp keys" in the Eb book.
So that depends if you want to learn tunes in the original keys or not. |
String friendly sharp keys??? I am missing something here.
Why is it more friendly than the flat keys.
Also C means what then
I am accustomed to practicing going around the cycle of 4ths so backwards cycle of 5ths on my 2-5-1. Not sure how any of it is "string friendly"
Isn't the old adage to get a guitar player to turn his amp down is put some notation in front of him.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2017 4:30 am
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[quote="Stefan Robertson"]
| David M Brown wrote: |
String friendly sharp keys??? I am missing something here.
Why is it more friendly than the flat keys.
Also C means what then
I am accustomed to practicing going around the cycle of 4ths so backwards cycle of 5ths on my 2-5-1. Not sure how any of it is "string friendly"
Isn't the old adage to get a guitar player to turn his amp down is put some notation in front of him.
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Yeah, I know the joke too:
"How do you make the guitar player turn down?
Give him the chart"
What I meant by "string friendly" keys are keys average guitar and uke players like playing in.
I like playing in ALL keys, but I've learned that a lot of back-up players like C, G D, A, etc.
The Eb book puts a lot of tunes in those keys.
BTW, I've used the C book since the 70's. I grew up playing with horn players and love Ab, Eb, etc. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 10 Jul 2017 6:03 am
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Yeah the flat keys seem the same to me. Either way it's all the cycle stuff. I always transpose it to C and start the Cycle through all keys so doesn't really matter to me.
I always try to avoid the this key is easier notion by learning them all. So I thus am starting to appreciate the slow gains means no bias. It's just a different key.
I'm also learning in a non shape manner and more theory approach so I am trying to play what I'm supposed to in whatever position. This is hard and slow but I am starting to increase my sight reading to chords and solo content.
Maybe in 5 years I'll be awesome.
I am working through 52 chords in a year plus 12 modes and 12 songs in all inversions and keys.
Nightmare.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 18 Mar 2022 7:58 am
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| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
| I just have to put in another plug for "Connecting Chords Through Linear Harmony", by Bert Ligon - it explains very very clearly, with zillions of examples by the greatest bop players, how to use lines to connect arpeggios, which solves the exact issue you mention. Simply playing arpeggios or scales, as is stated elsewhere here, is preparatory to playing jazz lines, not the end in itself. The real point of bop style playing is create lines that "make the changes" in a melodically and rhythmically interesting way. This book spells it out very clearly if you work through it thoroughly.... |
Resurrected 2022
Hey Christopher so I finally am taking your advice and tackling this book as I thought that the Mark Levine book just didn't teach what I was hoping to learn. So will post on my site as I work through this. May need some advice from time to time form yourself or others who are so knowledgable
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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