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Topic: You can't BUY Tone. |
Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 14 Jun 2017 8:50 am |
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Here is a very fine example of: 'That Emmons sound' Without using a push-pull changer.
https://youtu.be/OfYfQ24sdBQ
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2017 9:08 am
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| Larry Bressington wrote: |
Here's an example of 'That Sho-Bud sound' on a Non sho-bud.
The trick is to NOT listen with your eyes.
https://youtu.be/IbjViunwfvQ |
Lloyd is the epitome of the player having his own sound. Other players on Sho-Buds, however great, don't have that sound. It's not a "Sho-Bud sound", it's the "Lloyd Green sound". (I can't imagine how he does it, but I'd give anything to be able to get that sound!)
And there is a distinction to be made between Lloyd's style (note choices, phrasing, and articulation), which is utterly unique and seems inimitable, though many have tried, and the sound he gets--the tone, the timbre, of the notes even taken individually, which is also unique.
On a side note--not suggesting this is the secret to the above!--what kind of thumb pick is he using in that video? It seems extraordinarily large, with a surface area almost like a standard flat pick.  |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 14 Jun 2017 9:13 am
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But...if the guitar creates, "that sound" then it won't matter who is playing on it. The point of this thread is: it's the player that has "that sound" not the instrument.
The proof is in the pudding, you cant 'buy' it or swap it, but if you got it, you can take it to any guitar.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2017 9:41 am
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I've quoted this before, because I feel it's about the best post on this recurring topic I've seen. It's from Dean Parks back in 2006:
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I think that each player has his own ideal sound, and he tweaks everything within reach to make that tone, on any instrument he's playing.
It may take a lot of "doing" to get that tone on some instruments, and that extra effort may cramp his technique considerably. He MAY find an instrument, and/or an amplification chain, which gets him there with less strain, or maybe even with some unexpected added inspiration (it could be sonic, or ergonomic). If so, he wants that instrument, because of the bottom line: he finds he can make his best music with it.
Otherwise you wouldn't have great players be so extremely concerned with their equipment.
I also think that inspiring equipment breeds inspired technique.
Equipment is not everything, but it's not nothing. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 14 Jun 2017 11:56 am
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Great replies, you're all great sports.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 14 Jun 2017 1:01 pm
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You can not buy the finesse, dexterity or approach of another steeler. Maybe you can get close, but, it'd be a no cigar. However, you can buy the tone of an Emmoms or ShoBud or MSA or several other older steels. I have a friend, who, bought a 68' Emmons, used. As soon as he plugged it in, it immediately had THAT Emmons sound. He tried a Fender Twin a Music Man and an Evans amp. They all replicated THAT sound. Another friend had an MSA Classic, which, had its own sound with the same previous amps. I believe, that, ShoBuds and ZB"s have close sounds, not the same, but, close.
Now, these are all older steels built years ago. I think that, the newer steels are mostly very ergonomic and built very similarly. You can't compare the older steels with the new, so, you can't buy the older tone without playing the older equipment. Even then, you can't buy someone else's technique.
I saw and heard Buddy play a new ZumSteel Hybrid at Scotty's show and he sounded great! Just like Buddy! But, not like Buddy playing the Blade or any other Push Pull.
Buddy Emmons playing an Emmons Push Pull is the ultimate, the sound most of us love and would love to have. Again, we can't be Buddy or like him. We don't have his DNA.
But, we can buy an old Emmons and sound close or an old MSA and try to sound like Chalker. The list can go on.... you can't buy their tone, but, you can get the tools and sound as close as possible. |
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Jerry Korkki
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2017 8:38 am
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| I believe everything matters and it all adds up. In my early days of steel I practiced a lot on my little ZB student. Then I bought a used 60's ZB d10 Custom and that increased my practice time because that guitar was so cool to me. Then a music store owner called and asked me to test drive this new Peavey amp designed just for the steel called Session 400. He must of known I'd buy it. Again practice time went up. In 1980 my modified Deluxe Reverb went up in smoke at a rock gig and a friend was there who had his brand new Mesa Boogie Mk2 in his trunk. He let me finish the gig with it and for a second I thought the band got a new guitar player! Point is improvements in gear can translate into more time behind the wheel with better sound AND ability. I still get jazzed when I acquire a cool new guitar, amp or even effect. I hope all you fathers out there have a great day Sunday! |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 15 Jun 2017 11:17 am
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Great replies men, nicely said by all, looks like this thread has ran it's course and nobody got mad  agreed with Jerry have a great Father's day, later mates!!! 
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 10:00 am
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| Tone is in the hands, and a sound you like is the the ears of the beholder. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 1:05 pm
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Yes you can buy tone. What you can't buy is technique, ability, execution, feel and heart. Things happen when the big boys are in their element. We've all witnessed that.
But, I'm always vexed by statements by those of you that say equipment is not a part of tone. I bet I can find posts here from nearly all of you that contradict what you say.... talking about this, that or the other guitar, amp, pickups, picks, bars, electronics of one sort or another too. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any market for this stuff.
I'm not sure we're as clever as we claim.
Of course equipment is a part of tone. Just because an experienced player can sound good through a coffee can speaker and a lunch box amp doesn't mean they won't sound better with superior gear.
An example of such a case comes from an acquaintance of mine who plays guitar. Gorgeous US Tele, nice blackface twin and the usual complement of electronics. All the right stuff.
He has a gorgeous classic tone with the classic Tele grip.
Playing the classic Tele vamp in first position A sells that, but past that he falls short in the heat of the battle. Even though his execution and delivery fail, that tone remains.
The steel guitar and electronic gear you use are most definitely in the tone equation and you can buy that.
My 2ȼ before you close it out. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 1:34 pm
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
Yes you can buy tone. What you can't buy is technique, ability, execution, feel and heart. Things happen when the big boys are in their element. We've all witnessed that.
But, I'm always vexed by statements by those of you that say equipment is not a part of tone. I bet I can find posts here from nearly all of you that contradict what you say.... talking about this, that or the other guitar, amp, pickups, picks, bars, electronics of one sort or another too. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any market for this stuff.
I'm not sure we're as clever as we claim.
Of course equipment is a part of tone. Just because an experienced player can sound good through a coffee can speaker and a lunch box amp doesn't mean they won't sound better with superior gear.
An example of such a case comes from an acquaintance of mine who plays guitar. Gorgeous US Tele, nice blackface twin and the usual complement of electronics. All the right stuff.
He has a gorgeous classic tone with the classic Tele grip.
Playing the classic Tele vamp in first position A sells that, but past that he falls short in the heat of the battle. Even though his execution and delivery fail, that tone remains.
The steel guitar and electronic gear you use are most definitely in the tone equation and those are things you can buy.
My 2ȼ before you close it out. |
Jerry, you’ve put some of my thoughts into words... Why do we buy the externals like we do... we’re chasing TONE... if in fact it was ALL in the hands, we wouldn’t need to do that... if our tone is good, and if it was bad, we’d fix it by practicing more... Overall, I think tone is a product of many of the things you’ve mentioned... like pieces to a puzzle we all try to put together....
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 7:19 pm
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Larry, I fully agree with you... though taking that stance on this subject almost always gets met with resistance.
If a player unplugs one steel from his amp and plugs in a different brand it will sound different... until that player tweaks the tone controls to his instinctive preferences.
I would say though that you can 'buy' Bad tone, if you end up with a noisy pickup or an amp with a poor frequency range. I think I'm more picky with amps than anything else. It's very important that I can control the sound a certain way.
As some have stated in other words, the guitar itself does very little for the 'tone'. Everyone should choose a steel based on feel and reliability. That will give you confidence that affects your tone in ways that the electronics themselves don't have the ability to do.
Great topic! |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 8:14 pm
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Tone is in the hands, period. I get my hands on every piece of gear I can to make me sound better. Hee Hee
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Flamma Reverb, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 1:14 am
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While certainly there is truth to the topic but it's not absolute truth.
Telecasters do not sound like Les Pauls, 335's do not sound like Jazzmasters and there are some Steels that do not sound like other Steels. So the exception may be minimal but without even placing fingers on a fret board or a bar on the Steel, there are some that indeed sound different.
The issue the way I see it is we buy a specific brand because so and so may be playing one and sounds friggin great and we feel we can get that same sound. THATS the problem.
Hands and ears bring out the best of an instrument, or make that what the instrument is capable of. Many instruments still have a deep hidden secret inside that the player will never find. Just as many players will pick up or sit behind a guitar and know in a few moments that it's not the one for them.
My take, it's too general to conclude that every instrument can deliver the sound a player wants.
Of my 3 Steels, me playing each of them, which I do, only ONE has a very specific growl down in the low fret board region which can be heard out of the gate.
It's not unheard of for Bass players to select a Bass with a natural sound, no amp , which talks to them under the 5th fret.
Many Instruments have sweet spots, but not all of them .
We certainly can buy instruments that sound different than other instruments, is that buying tone ?
Not my call...but when I go on a Telecaster hunt I know which ones I like in a NY minute over the ones that I don't.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Terry Barnett
From:
Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 6:04 am
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Years ago when Q sound was the recording rage, a friend of mine would take the technology from studio to studio for artists to use. One session he told me about was with Roger Waters...He needed a guitar solo for the song What God Wants, and he heard that Jeff Beck was gonna be in town for a few more days. So they called him.
Beck agreed to do the session but he had no gear. It had been sent back to England but he'd be fine with a Strat and a Fender amp... no specifics. A Fender 4x10 Bassman and generic Strat were brought in. After setting the gear up for the session, it was determined that the sound was less than inspiring and that they would need to get something better.
In walks Jeff Beck. They apologized for the gear and he said he'd give it a listen for himself.
He plugged in and guess who he sounded like... |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 6:20 am
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I worked with a guitarist who played a '68 Les Paul through a Carvin tube amp. One night his car was stolen and all of his gear was in the trunk... all gone. The following week he showed up at the gig with a Telecaster and a Peavey amp, and he sounded exactly like he did on the old gear! The same tone. We were amazed. That was 35 years ago and I've witnessed many other "gear swap/same sound" situations since then. The player will tweak the knobs on the guitar and the amp until he finds the sound he hears in his head.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 6:43 am
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This is a great thread. I'm convinced that I did not buy tone. I bought the guitar my ears have been searching for since 1999.
Growing up I listened to the local "hot country" station while I helped my dad do light construction. Hours and hours of country music from the 60's through the early 80's. I absolutely despised it. I liked hard rock.
But, the sound of steel stayed in my head like a madness I'd walled away. When I took up dobro in 1995 steel still didn't come to the surface. It did in 1999. I have spent a lot of money and whatnot looking for a guitar etc that will help me recreate the sound in my head.
I like what Tony said above. And, it really is mostly in the hands. I don't really play any different, but I love the sound that I now have. But, I know, any guitar will work...just not like this one. I think an old Emmons would be a great thing to try. I'm certain the right PP would go a long way towards "the sound." Actually, I'm satisfied. I may never try one. Well, only if I have 5-6 grand burning a hole in my pocket!
Again, great topic, Larry. Cool Beck story, Terry.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Robert Cates
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 7:48 am different tone same player
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Guitars sure do have different sound .
Checkk out David hartley on the shobud
he is super player and always sounds good but just listen to that shobud
Deep rich thick sound
To me it's the best he ever sounds.
Same player plus different equipment equals different sound
Just saying
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 9:20 am
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Dunno if I agree with that 100%. I have owned guitars where I sounded good no matter what I did (Emmons D-10 bolt-on, MSA Classic)& guitars that I only sound good sometimes (Mullen D-10) & guitars where I always just sound OK, no better or worse, no matter what (Emmons D-10 LeGrande)
I wouldn't try to chicken-pick or do Gatton/Buchanan type stuff on my Gibson SG/Les Paul, nor would I try to do Clapton-type stuff on my Tele. My '72 Strat ain't the best for any 1 thing, but it's good for EVERYTHING across the board.
That is one of the reasons, if I am in a club not gigging (very rare; ain't no good bands in my area worth seeing except the couple I play with)I will NOT sit in on anyone else's rig. Best way to make a fool of myself. Gotta have my tone.
Some guys, like Buddy, would sound great playing an ironing board. I ain't one of themLOL!
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 9:29 am
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One example of being able to buy tone...The Hammond B-3 & Leslie. No matter how much you spend, you ain't gonna get that sound unless you fork over the bucks for THAT rig. Almost bought one a few years ago, but measurements taken would not let me get it into my house, which is prolly a good thing since I can't play organ anyway except for chord stuff; just always wanted a B-3.
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A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Robert Cates
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 9:56 am tone
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| I have never heard Emmons playing an ironing board but my guess would be it wouldn't sound the same as a push pull. Let me guess, which one would have a better tone. Hummmmm |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2017 1:11 pm
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There is a minimum threshold of quality required in the instrument and the amplifier for good tone. I think this has already been stated in the thread, but deserves a repeat. Beyond that threshold, the degrees of improvement have mostly to do with the player's ability to coax the best possible tone out of the equipment.
It would have had to be a pretty bitchen ironing board, even for Buddy to sound good. Maybe there's one on Craigslist. |
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