| Author |
Topic: Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control? |
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 6:56 am |
|
Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control?
When I ordered this 1st MSA I had them put it on and it works great.
Rolls back highs without getting muddy.
L-Frets are very nice also.
Super guitar!
Thank you Kyle and Mitchell !
http://www.msapedalsteels.com/html/home.html
Last edited by Ken Metcalf on 12 Jun 2017 5:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 9:41 am
|
|
Some players never use a tone control. Just crank it wide open and leave it there. I did too for a while, but then I discovered it can be very useful for different situations.
My Emmons, Zum, Sierras and Williams, all had them. The MCI I'm playing now doesn't nor did some of the Mullens I owned.
I think they should have one...you don't have to use it, but you can't use it if you don't have it. JMO.
Nice MSA there Ken. Fine guitars. |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 9:43 am
|
|
I always play with a Goodrich match box.
It has both a tone control and a volume control right at your finger tips. |
|
|
|
Terry Barnett
From:
Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 4:18 pm
|
|
| Hey Erv...I assume the tone controls on the average psg such as the MSA would be passive. Do you find the matchbox to be a little fussy, dialling in a clean sound, etc? It looks to have a small preamp and two 9V batteries. I thought at $300.00 plus dollars that's a pretty expensive bit of engineering... Just curious. |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 4:32 pm
|
|
| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I always play with a Goodrich match box.
It has both a tone control and a volume control right at your finger tips. |
I use a Goodrich 7A and love it. But, that's not the point of the thread. Ken asked why steels don't have a tone control built in.
That's a good question!
Maybe in the Old Days amps were less sophisticated and having a tone control helped the player shape the sound from the guitar.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
|
|
|
Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 6:58 pm
|
|
I think it's that Very few people use em. I bypassed all of mine.
_________________
Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
|
|
|
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
|
Posted 6 Jun 2017 7:37 pm
|
|
You're probably right about that Justin. Many do. Been a while since I've had a tone control so I wasn't thinking about the bypass switch, which I think is a must in a tone control circuit.
It can be useful sometimes to have a preset ready to switch in when desired though. |
|
|
|
Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
|
Posted 7 Jun 2017 2:50 am
|
|
I have asked this question many times,So many times in fact that a friend of mine built me a little box that fits into the jack of any of my steel guitars it has a knob to roll of highs and a by pass switch,I'm lost without it,I once got in a big argument with Bobby Seymour about this very subject and besides him calling me a bunch of names,He said you want less highs turn around and take them off of the amp!I argued that when you cut highs at the guitar it sounds different than when you cut them at the amp,He didn't think so?
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 7 Jun 2017 3:37 am
|
|
I use the tone controls alot on Tele and PSG.
Before I used a Match box 7a not to be confused with the Hilton sustain which the controls on the Hilton seem to be a little more touchy.
When I got an Emmons push pull and got used to using that tone control it just became what I like and was used to.
The guys at MSA told me they could do it for me so here it is and I am very happy with my new MSAs. |
|
|
|
Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
|
Posted 7 Jun 2017 4:51 am
|
|
A Sarno Freeloader does the job nicely. I love mine.
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
Posted 8 Jun 2017 12:54 am
|
|
| I've always wondered whether a Sarno Black Box would function as a tone control? I use the tone control on my P/P Emmons all of the time. I usually don't have to tweak it much, but to me its similar to using the tone control on a Tele. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 8 Jun 2017 1:25 am
|
|
I think the answer is that a lot of steel players are going for a pretty brilliant sound and just don't want a tone control. One of my Zums has a bypassable tone control, and I just bypass it most of the time. A tone control does attenuate a little bit of high-end even all the way up - it's subtle, but noticable if you listen. Jeff Beck used to talk about preferring his Esquire in some situations, with its tone control bypass in the rear lever position.
I have a Sarno Revelation preamp and a Freeloader, both of which have the variable input impedance control which varies it from something like the 200 KOhm region to about 1 MegOhm. I often use the Freeloader for steel. I prefer it to any passive tone control I've tried. I usually set it to the middle-high end. But at times I set it lower to smooth out the sound, or set it higher to sparkle up a dull amp with a low input impedance.
| Quote: |
| I've always wondered whether a Sarno Black Box would function as a tone control? |
If it has the variable input impedance control, then it should act pretty similarly to the Freeloader in that respect. What I like about the Freeloader is that it is small, attaches to the leg, no power cables required, the battery lasts a long time, and it sounds great to my tastes. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 Jun 2017 1:52 am Re: Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control?
|
|
| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
| Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control? |
Most players did not make use of these passive tone controls in the past, so producers started to leave them out in new PSGs.
I like having passive tone control(s) on PSGs, because what such passive - frequency dependent - "load modifiers" can do soundwise when connected directly across the PU coil(s) cannot be emulated by active tone controls down the sound-chain.
What I don't like about built-in tone controls in PSGs (and guitars), is that they are thought of, built, and mainly used, as pure roll-off "low pass" filters. Passive loads across the PU coils can do so much more because of the way they interact directly with the PU.
I bought a Freeloader earlier this year, in order to have a simple circuit/box with enough space to build in to modify the PU-load in more frequency dependent and "non-linear" ways. Gonna be fun when I get around to it. |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 11 Jun 2017 9:19 am
|
|
It's never made sense to me either. When I had my GFI Ultra I made an outboard box with both volume and tone controls.
Steel can sometimes be TOO brittle/bright, and rolling a tone control back a bit can really warm up the sound. A 6-string type volume/tone circuit is very useful in adjusting the overall sound.
As Stu said it's a completely different tone adjustment from an amp tone control, and the two combined are also different from a volume pedal.
There are plenty of "no load" pots available if you want to bypass the tone control. I have never met a player who could hear the difference though.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
|
Posted 11 Jun 2017 6:45 pm
|
|
There's an economic factor also. Adding a tone control is an extra hole drilled in the guitar, and extra parts to pay for. If steel playing customers say they never use a tone control, there's little impetus for a builder to add one.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
David Rupert
From:
Mesa, Arizona (via Mahopac, NY & Missouri).
|
Posted 11 Jun 2017 9:06 pm
|
|
I have been told years ago, by Mullen and/or Billy Cooper, the reason there is not a tone control...& just the toggle switch for the necks, is to prevent cabinet drop. The less holes on top, the better. This is what I was told. I don't know.
_________________
David "DJ" Rupert
"Music. Without it, life itself...would be impossible."
ZumSteel - Encoreâ„¢ S-10 / 3p x 5k (Two-Tone; Red & Black Top).
Rolandâ„¢ Cube 80x Amp, Hilton Volume Pedal, TC Electronicsâ„¢ Flashbackâ„¢ Delay, TC Electronicsâ„¢ MojoMojoâ„¢ Overdrive, Peterson StroboPlus HD Tuner, D2F Covers. Evans JE-300 Amp. (in the not too distant future).
Most Importantly: the musicians hands...& soul.
http://www.bandmix.com/pedal-steel-75/ |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 12 Jun 2017 1:12 am
|
|
| David Rupert wrote: |
| I have been told years ago, by Mullen and/or Billy Cooper, the reason there is not a tone control...& just the toggle switch for the necks, is to prevent cabinet drop. |
I find it strange that anyone would give "prevention of cabinet drop" as reason for leaving out the tone control, but I have heard stranger things over the years...
Anyway, I much prefer to have any and all switches and pots mounted in the end-plate - next to the output jack, as - to me - they get in the way on the top-plate.
Another factor is that if the top-plate on a PSG is designed to act as an actual sound-board - which seems to be rare, mounting any "unnecessary vibration inhibitors" in it doesn't really make much sense  |
|
|
|
Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
|
Posted 12 Jun 2017 2:35 am
|
|
This might be the answer to your question,
"Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control?"
"Tone controls are already on the Amp"
No need to put two saddles on one horse.
_________________
Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 12 Jun 2017 3:10 am Re: Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control?
|
|
| Fred Justice wrote: |
"Tone controls are already on the Amp"
No need to put two saddles on one horse. |
"Sounds" reasonable, but one cannot fully replace the other...
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| [...] what such passive - frequency dependent - "load modifiers" can do soundwise when connected directly across the PU coil(s) cannot be emulated by active tone controls down the sound-chain. |
...and - if presented with the choice - I rather have a passive tone control connected to the PU, than active equalizers in the amp. |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
|
Posted 12 Jun 2017 4:35 am
|
|
There are reasons why a tone control is appropriate for the steel, and why the neck selector, tone control knob and bypass switch should be on the center between the necks, a la the Emmons guitar.
When playing a song using both the E9 and C6 necks, it's much easier, with one left hand swipe, to both engage or disengage the tone control bypass and switch the neck selector from one neck to the other.
Often I want a different EQ for C6 than I do for E9. This arrangement makes the switch a breeze and very quick. Buddy used to do that maneuver quite often. It's one of the benefits of the Emmons guitar (among many).
I had Frank put the neck selector on my Infinity between the necks, instead of the usual position under the cabinet by the right hand.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 13 Jun 2017 4:52 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
This might be the answer to your question,
"Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control?"
"Tone controls are already on the Amp"
No need to put two saddles on one horse. |
Fred, there's a significant difference in sound *and* use between "set and forget" amp tone controls and those on a guitar.
On a guitar they can be adjusted on the fly, which to some of use is very important.
But they also affect the overall sound very differently. The controls both work differently, both having some tone affect and working together to provide different combined settings. Also, whether tube or solid state it's best to have an amp's level set to push the output stage. using guitar controls the amp can be run at a fairly high level all the time and actual volume set at the guitar.
Guitar controls are also more effective in many cases at removing brittle or icepick highs that are increased in rooms with hard walls, ceilings and floors. Cutting highs just at the amp often turns the overall tone dull and lifeless , while it's not usually difficult to make minor adjustment of the tone (and sometimes volume control) and eliminate piecing sounds without killing inherent sparkle.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 14 Jun 2017 2:27 am
|
|
| Stu Schulman wrote: |
| ... a friend of mine built me a little box that fits into the jack of any of my steel guitars it has a knob to roll of highs and a by pass switch... |
Would your friend make more of them?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 15 Jun 2017 3:14 am Re: Why don't more modern PSGs have a tone control?
|
|
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| ...and - if presented with the choice - I rather have a passive tone control connected to the PU, than active equalizers in the amp. |
Active EQ is often overrated. Fender (and the boutiques that are based thereon) have a passive tone stack, and I'll put a Twin up against any of the Peaveys for tone any day of the week.
But Georg is right: Tone knobs on the guitar act in completely different ways and have completely different roles. It would be a good thing if more people would use them to tailor the sound to the song.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Patrick Huey
From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
|
Posted 18 Jun 2017 7:36 am
|
|
I have a tone control knob on my pre RP Mullen that Mickey Adams disconnected prior to my owning it, and I had it reconnected when I installed a 705 pup...I asked him why it was disconnected and just as Mickey said there would be and his reason for disconnecting it...when used there is a significant loss of volume and punch, Not sure if that's just with Mullens or that way on a lot of steels. I now set on bypass/tone defeat and use an original Hilton Sustain box to control tone.
_________________
Pre RP Mullen D10 8/7, Zum 3/4, Carter S-10 3/4, previous Cougar SD-10 3/4 & GFI S-10 3/4, Fender Steel King, 2 Peavey Session 500's, Peavey Nashville 400, Boss DD-3, Profex-II, Hilton Digital Sustain, '88 Les Paul Custom,Epiphone MBIBG J-45, Fender Strat & Tele's, Takamine acoustics, Marshall amps, Boss effects, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and it all started with an old cranky worn out Kay acoustic you could slide a Mack truck between the strings and fretboard on!! |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
|
Posted 18 Jun 2017 10:01 am
|
|
The tone control will suck high end, much like a passive volume pedal. Therefore, like the Emmons, there should be a bypass switch.
Some heavyweights, Jim Loessberg and Jay Dee Maness come to mind, prefer the sound of the Emmons guitar with both the passive tone controls and the passive volume pedal. And who are we to challenge their preferences?
Personally, I don't mind a passive volume pedal and occasionally use a Goodrich when playing non-pedal steel. But my onstage preference for pedal steel guitar is the Telonics pedal, and absent that, the Hilton.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
