When Is A Bigsby Not A Bigsby?

Chris Bauer · From: Nashville, TN USA

Or any model not really the model it's supposed to be?

This may sound like a facetious question but a recent deal made me consider how important a question this is in the age of ever-escalating prices on at least some pieces of vintage gear.

Here's a very short version of a very long story...

A guitar was offered for sale as a Bigsby non-pedal guitar. It was, in fact, one of the wonderful Bigsby recreations made by Paul Warnik and Dave Peterson and had at least some non-Bigsby parts added by a subsequent owner. Looks like at least one new end plate, wiring, etc., and it's unclear what else might have been replaced or modified.

The question here isn't whether or not it's a wonderful guitar. It absolutely is. It plays and sounds terrific. But is it a Bigsby?

As a player, my thought is that it matters not a lick. As someone who sometimes watches the market in old steels and their values, though, it feels like an important question with which to wrestle.

On one hand, all this is taken care of if an ad fully discloses the history and modifications of an instrument. However:

1. That doesn't always happen.

2. In this case, the seller truly wasn't aware of the history of the guitar when he offered it.

What say you all?

Dana Duplan · From: Ramona, CA

I think you answered your own question when you described it as a recreation. IMO an authentic Bigsby is one built and assembled by P.A. Bigsby. As such it should carry a much higher value. As you noted can still be a super fine guitar but it shouldn't come with the price tag of a 100% authentic Bigsby.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

You are buying the market. If a guitar is not what it was claimed to be and its market value is less... you have suffered damages. The functionality of the guitar is not a consideration. .. only its market value...

(At least this is the way I understand things to be with commercial law)

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I have the original hatchet that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree.
The handle has been replaced 6 times and the head twice.
What is the market value? Whoa!

Mark Eaton · Posted 5 Oct 2016 9:19 am

I am not familiar with the transaction in question, and at the risk of offending someone, you would have to be pretty much out-to-lunch to not be aware that the guitar was a recreation of an original Bigsby.

The reason I say that is because the type of person who knows about items like Bigsby steel guitars is a tiny percentage of the population and this is an esoteric area of guitar collecting and ownership. In doing the due diligence this doesn't strike me as a branch of rocket science.

Much higher stakes money-wise, there are original Shelby AC Cobra sports cars and then there are the legions of replicas or "continuation" versions. I think there were maybe 55 of the originals?

The continuation cars sell for a bunch of money, but it's relatively speaking, small potatoes compared to the prices of the originals. I don't think folks get confused between the two in that lofty world of classic car collecting.

It occurs to me that perhaps original Bigsby steel guitars vs. replicas are sort of in the same boat as the Shelby Cobra.
_________________
Mark

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I currently have a PA Reissue and a genuine Bigsby.

I put a Bigsby logo on the PA Reissue because it looks correct, much like putting a Fender decal on a Telecaster copy. Some other owners of PA Reissues have done likewise. However, I would never claim the instrument as a genuine Bigsby as part of a sale. I would price the instrument (a 10-10-8 w/5 pedals) much as Todd Clinesmith would price one of his guitars.

My genuine Bigsby, OTOH, is a 1949 original, but pedals added by PA Bigsby in 1954, and in the 1960s Shot Jackson added wood neck inserts. So, from a T-8 with metal necks and raised graphics and 1 pedal, it's now a T-8 with wood neck inserts and 6 pedals. But the work was done by PA and Shot, so there's some sort of provenance there.

Incidentally, it's the guitar in the photo that's on the Bigsby website. Lifted off my website without permission or photo credit by Gretsch, a company all to willing to threaten sellers on eBay and elsewhere with trademark infringement at the slightest mis-step, BTW.

So, in the opinion of the Peanut Gallery, which is the more valuable guitar?
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

My 1956 quad BIGSBY-original with six pedals was said to be built by someone other than Paul and it therefore was not a
true original BIGSBY.

WHAT say YOU about this??????????

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I say that if it was made in Paul Bigsby's shop by an employee of PA, it's a genuine Bigsby.

And it's not something to get your panties in a wad about, Ray.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Ray, your Bigsby is all Factory. Finding the evidence that Paul Bigsby was in Hawaii for six weeks while your guitar was made explained why Jon Frye parts are underneath -- because Jon Frye did work putting Bigsbys together. He was just one of several people who did work for Bigsby, such as the at least three people who did the inlay work.

The PA Reissues mentioned in this thread are known, respected and have an established market themselves. They are fine guitars using mostly original Bigsby parts. The only thing I think was a mistake was that the pickups were matched -- same reading for each neck. On original Bigsbys, if unaltered, the pickups on triples consistently read lower, medium, hotter, but still within a close range. I don't notice much of a difference, but Bigsby may have been matching pickups to tunings?
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Chris Bauer · From: Nashville, TN USA

Thanks, all, for the reality check. Seems like we're all on the same page here.

Mark - Weirdly enough, part of the actual, long version of the story is that the seller really had no idea. Some time when you're here or I'm there, we're years overdue to meet in person. I'll regale you with the tale.

Ray - I'm with the others on this. Many builders use help - big guitar companies have entire factories - and their guitars are no less "genuine" because of it. Yours sounds to be as much a 'true' Bigsby as any.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

It's a question that wouldn't apply to most builders. Most luthiers employ assistants, or put some part of the job out to others. For instance, a luthier without a machine shop will put out the machining of parts to another company. I've built string instruments for years, but I've never built a machine tuner. In fact, I don't know of any pedal steel manufacturer that makes its own machine tuners. No-one would say that a Fender is not a Fender because Leo didn't work on it, and, of course, no Gibson has been worked on by Orville for decades. In fact, Sho-Bud on occasions used other luthiers to build Sho-Buds for them at times when they were busy.

Eugene Cole · From: near Washington Grove, MD, USA

To my mind a Genuine Bigsby was assembled in P's shop from parts he made or acquired. It is normal to customize instruments so the presence of non-original parts matters not if they constitute an upgrade.

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Bigsby pedal steel guitars by Gretsch?
Does anyone have one of these?
How much do they cost and are they good reproductions?
I know that Todd Clinesmith makes wonderful reproductions under his own name, But just wonder about these?
http://www.bigsby.com/vibe/products/pedal-steels/
Just curious Shocked

Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

The copy on the Gretsch website on the steel guitar is just a reprint of the text from a Bigsby brochure printed in the 1950s, and the photo is of a guitar owned by me and taken from my website... without permission, incidentally. Mad

Gretsch hasn't made any Bigsby steel guitar reproductions. Paul Warnik and Dave Peterson purchased all steel-related parts and materiel from the Bigsby Co. in the early 1990s, before Bigsby Inc. was acquired by Gretsch. They produced approximately 10 "PA Reissue" steel guitars before their remaining inventory of parts was acquired by Todd Clinesmith, who now carries on the work of building Bigsby-styled steels.

Gretsch did have a limited line of reproduction Spanish guitars designed around PA's limited number of original standard guitars, manufactured in Japan in the early 2000s. They're nicely made... I own one... and are somewhat collectible since they're no longer being made. Those are the guitars on the Gretsch website.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Thanks Herb,
Always learn something useful from your posts.
That explains why there is no mention of them here on the forum.

Funny that Gretsch took that photo from your site without permission.
For years we were making reproductions of older logos in pearl and abalone.
We did this for luthiers doing repairs because the companies would not supply those parts.
It was Fender, Gretsch and Gibson that made me stop with threats of legal action.
So as far as I know, there is nobody producing these for repair work now, too bad.

Also Fender custom shop was the first to ask me to make samples of there older logo in those materials about 10 or 12 years ago.
I made them and shipped some to them and never got a response until their lawyer sent a warning to me and then notified other companies that we were selling the logos. Whoa!

I guess this is a one way street unless you have the money to deal with a legal action... I could not spend thousands on lawyers for a loosing deal over $12.00 logos so now luthiers need to cut their own, not easy for many. Sad

About the Clinesmith's, they are wonderful and I'd love to have another Pedal Steel that I don't need! Very Happy

They are like love, one can't have too much.
I've sent an inquiry to him about the prices of his pedal steels since I can afford it now that I'm semi retired, but no answer yet.
Only sent the e-mail a few days ago.
Guessing he may be swamped with work?

BTW, I expect to be in Texas in mid August. Maybe I'll get a chance to hear you play?
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Hi Herb,
Well I've had enough lawyers already with my last wife.
Still going back and forth to court ten years after we were divorced.
She just won't give up trying to get custody of our son.
Has already cost me over 70 grand during that time down the lawyer toilet drain.
Now I'll just try to avoid them for another 7 years until my son is 18.

There is no chance to win against people with deep pockets.
My grandpa used to end the pledge "With liberty and Justice for all them that can afford it"
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.

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