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Post new topic evolution of c6 tuning?
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Author Topic:  evolution of c6 tuning?
Kevin Quick


From:
Roseville, California, USA
Post Posted 15 May 2017 5:01 pm     Reply with quote

Ok so I think I have read just about everything about how the e9 tuning evolved, pedals levers etc. But I can't seem to find anything about how the c6 pedal tuning evolved. Anyone point me in the right direction?
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 15 May 2017 7:23 pm     Reply with quote

The top 8 were a lap steel tuning. IIRC, the bottom 2 and the 5 pedals and 3rd string drop lever were all created at the same time by Buddy and Shot, in concert with Jimmy
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 15 May 2017 8:27 pm     Reply with quote

On those top 8 strings, pedals 5 & 6 reflect the most common bar slants. Jerry Byrd often retuned his low C to C#. That's where pedal 8 came from.
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post Posted 15 May 2017 9:02 pm     Reply with quote

Was Jerry Byrd responsible for the basic C6 tuning ?
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Jeff Harbour


From:
Western Ohio, USA
Post Posted 16 May 2017 2:59 am     Reply with quote

I've heard that today's standard Pedal 7 originated with Bob White.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 16 May 2017 3:38 am     Reply with quote

Far be it from me you contradict you, Jeff, and P7 is certainly the odd one out as it doesn't replicate a bar slant, but I've always believed what Lane says - that the C6 setup was devised all of a piece (and under some pressure of time). E9 was evolution, C6 was creation.

BTW, here is a chart of how the E9 developed. I wish I could remember who created it so I can credit them. Perhaps they'll step up and take a bow.



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Douglas Schuch


From:
St John, US Virgin Islands
Post Posted 16 May 2017 4:18 am     Reply with quote

I remember reading that when Shot and Buddy were first setting up the double-neck Permanents, they had a good idea of what to do on the E9th neck, but not on the C6. So Buddy went home and came back the next day with what is still the standard 5 pedals for C6. I am trying to find where I read this story, but no luck so far. Of course, the story could be myth, or my memory faulty - but that is what I recall reading.
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Douglas Schuch


From:
St John, US Virgin Islands
Post Posted 16 May 2017 4:24 am     Reply with quote

Here is the Big E himself talking about some of this:

http://buddyemmons.com/_board/0000043f.htm

"Three different steel players influenced the pedal choices for my first C6 setup: Bob White, Jimmy Day, and Speedy West. My eight string Bigsby had an E6th tuning like Speedy's and one of the changes was in part, the equivalent of our 5th pedal. The 7th pedal was a Bob White change he used on Hank Thompson records. The other was a cross between changes Jimmy Day had on his Wright Custom that raised the 1st and lowered the 5th with separate pedals. I combined the two on one pedal and made it the 6th pedal. The 8th pedal was another Jimmy Day or Jerry Byrd change that raised the middle C 1/2 tone. I added the boo-wah lower to it. When we went to 10 string Sho~Buds, I added whatever 9th and 10th string raises or lowers that were possible, as it didn't have the capability of raising and lowering the same string. When the Emmons guitar came out, it allowed raises and lowers of all strings so I went the full route on the bass end and set the rest of the tuning as it is today. It's possible to get a reasonable facsimile of big band sounds on the C6 tuning and Curly Chalker was an excellent example."
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b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 16 May 2017 6:31 am     Reply with quote

I've always wondered about pedal 4. It probably came from Buddy, but why? It's the only pedal that does the same thing in two octaves.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post Posted 16 May 2017 7:24 am     Reply with quote

Bob,
To answer your question, it is my understanding that Jerry Byrd came up with the C6th tuning.
The 1st time I ever was exposed to it was when I got this book in the '50s.

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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 18 May 2017 12:33 pm     Reply with quote

b0b wrote:
I've always wondered about pedal 4. It probably came from Buddy, but why? It's the only pedal that does the same thing in two octaves.

I wonder about it too. In his Basic C6 course Buddy doesn't mention it at all, although 5,6,7 & 8 get a complete workout. Some published copedents have it raising string 4 but not 8. It seems to have fallen out of use (I have other courses that don't mention it either).
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 19 May 2017 3:43 am     Reply with quote

I've only heard it used by old-school western swing cats. One listen to a Tom Morrell album and I regretted decommissioning mine.
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 19 May 2017 4:31 am     Reply with quote

Lane Gray wrote:
I've only heard it used by old-school western swing cats. One listen to a Tom Morrell album and I regretted decommissioning mine.


Now just hold on a minute there, young'un! I resemble that remark!! Laughing

Well, with the passing of Jimmy Grabowske and since I'm younger than Neil Flanz, I guess I'm the second oldest steel player still regularly gigging in the Austin area. Oh Well
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post Posted 19 May 2017 7:35 am     Reply with quote

There are numerous Hawaiian players still out there using the C6th tuning. Rolling Eyes
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 19 May 2017 8:04 am     Reply with quote

So Herb, do you use P4? You don't mention it in any of the courses I have.
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 19 May 2017 9:02 am     Reply with quote

I do use pedal 4 quite a bit. I've posted about the way I use it several times over the years here on the Forum.

It's not a redundant change of either C-B on s.3 (with knee lever), or A-B on s.4 (with pedal 7).

In summary p.4 A-B yields:
1. a whole tone raise on 4 that gives a 1/2 tone interval with s.3 (B next to C);
2. a two-string unison with s.3 when lowered to B (B on s.4 and B on s.3);
3. a D9 chord with p.5 raising into a D13 with p.4;
4. a Daug when 1/2 pedaled with p.5;
5. the effect of a whole tone raise and lower on s.4;
6. another voicing of Cmaj7, similar to #1 above.
7. a similar change to pedal A on E9 (using s.5 G as the root and s.1 D as the 5th tone)

I posted sound files describing the above uses in one of the previous threads, though I don't know if they're still accessible because I was on a different computer when I posted them.

Here's a link to the thread I mentioned, with the sound files I posted. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=172911&highlight=pedal
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Jack Aldrich


From:
Washington, USA
Post Posted 20 May 2017 6:14 pm     Reply with quote

When i started on the C6 neck, I noticed that I couldn't get the first inversion of the C chord like you get the 1st inversion of the E chord at the 3rd fret by using the A pedal and the LKL that raises the string to get the E chord at the 3rd fret (excuse the fuzziness - I'm 2000 miles away from my pedal steels). So, I used a set of pedal throws that give me an A chord open, and the first inversion of C is at the 3rd fret. The second inversion as at the 8th fret. I moved the pedal 4 changes to my RKR. I love this setup. When I get home on Monday, I'll try to clarify this!
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Ron Funk


From:
Missouri, USA
Post Posted 20 May 2017 7:10 pm     Reply with quote

In the Tab book for Going Out Swinging, BE uses Pedal 4 during his solo for Heart of A Clown (sung by Curtis Potter)
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 25 May 2017 10:23 am     Reply with quote

Herb - thank you for that rundown. I'm still digesting your 2009 dissertation!

Sounds like something you can get very attached to, or do without entirely if you don't get hooked. My D10 came with a P4 but I didn't inhale, and I ended up reworking it to a 3rd string C to C# raise.
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Chris Sattler


From:
Camden, Australia
Post Posted 29 May 2017 4:22 am     Reply with quote

For those who don't play C6 much or really don't use P4, could one not reassign that pedal as a Franklin for E9 even if it meant moving all E9 pedals one position to the right and putting Franklin on pedal 1?

I personally wouldn't do it as I like C6 more than the top neck but it must be possible.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post Posted 29 May 2017 4:31 am     Reply with quote

That's what's so great about this amazing instrument - you can do anything you like. Try rearranging the keys on a saxophone and see how far you get Smile
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 29 May 2017 6:42 am     Reply with quote

Chris Sattler wrote:
For those who don't play C6 much or really don't use P4, could one not reassign that pedal as a Franklin for E9 even if it meant moving all E9 pedals one position to the right and putting Franklin on pedal 1?

I personally wouldn't do it as I like C6 more than the top neck but it must be possible.


If your guitar isn't plagued with excessive cabinet drop, you can have them do double duty. My Zum has 8 pedals, 5 on each neck.

When I realized that I wanted the 1st and 2nd string raise, I decommissioned P4, and moved the pedals over to put that change on P1. I then wanted P4 back, then decided to add the Franklin pedal. So the C6th P4 is shared with the C pedal, and the Franklin pedal is shared with P6 (P5 being on LKR).
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