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Topic: Two Amps One Speaker |
Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 4:08 am |
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I have degenerative disc disease among other medical issues. Loading the car to go to the gig, unloading and setup, tear down and load out, then taking everything back into the house. You know the story. I'm usually so sore the day after a gig all I can do is take it easy the entire day.
My main goal is simplifying and most importantly lightening up the weight and volume of stuff I take to a gig.
I tried using a Roland Cube 80XL with an ABY switch. This allowed me to play 6 string and steel through one amp. I've been using this setup for 3-4 years and was for the most part happy with it.
But the setup is complicated using a shared pedal board. It's a lot of pressing switches to go from steel to Tele. I'm just not getting the sound I want from either one.
Recently I acquired a Carvin BX500 that I run into a Tommy Huff Cab with a Telonics Neo 15. I am absolutely thrilled with the sound I'm getting out of this combination for steel, and it weighs next to nothing.
Now I'm spoiled. I don't want to carry around my 6 string guitar amp anymore. What I would like to try is using something like a Quilter Mini Head (SS) for guitar and the BX500 for steel into the same cab. I could mount the Quilter in the same rack as the BX500 and have a very light road rig.
I've done a little research about using the same speaker with a switch for two different amps. It seems the real issue is using a tube amp and it needing a constant load. Two SS amps should not cause an issue. So how can this be done?
All the switchers I've seen are for 1 input to switch between two amps into one speaker. This is usually meant for a guitarist to switch between a rhythm and a lead amp using one guitar.
Is there anyway to use two different amp heads into one speaker?
Maybe install an additional input on the back of the cab with a switch to control the speaker input?
Maybe some of you amp techs out there have some ideas?
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 6:22 am
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I have no idea...that's why I'm asking...
Could you use a regular "A-B box?"
Two amps plugged in one side,going to one cab?
Seems you'd have to make sure to turn off the amp you weren't using so as not
to blow it up...
I've often wondered about this and I'm glad someone else has too...
Inquiring minds...
Steve
Brand X |
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Ken Morgan
From:
Midland, Texas, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 7:10 am
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Look for a product made by Tonebone called 'Headbone'...specifically designed to switch between 2 heads into one speaker cab
_________________
67 Shobud Blue Darling III, scads of pedals and such, more 6 strings than I got room for
Ken Morgan
Midland, TX |
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Jack Goodson
From:
new brockton,alabama (deceased)
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 8:02 am 2/amps?
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| Get a Vegas 400....thanks jack |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 9:27 am Re: 2/amps?
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| Jack Goodson wrote: |
| Get a Vegas 400....thanks jack |
I'm not sure how that will help with his back problems. |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 10:16 am
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| Quote: |
| Look for a product made by Tonebone called 'Headbone'...specifically designed to switch between 2 heads into one speaker cab |
I did. I also looked at two other similar units. But these devices assume you want one input. I need to connect to the input of each amp separately. The Headbone may work but its designed for a single input going to 2 different heads then into one cab. The headbone looks like the circuitry acts like an effects loop. There is a single input and an AMP OUT and an AMP RETURN. We all know what happens when you only have one end of an effects loop connected, nothing. That may not be the case here but it looks that way.
I know I can resolve this whole issue with about $3K and calling Tim Marcus or some other fine boutique amp builder. But I don't have $3K.
The goal here is to lose weight and make it as simple as possible. Two amps that are very light Class D power amps with a good preamp front end, going into a single very light TS-NEO 15.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 10:43 am
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You have made your situation perfectly clear and, having acknowledged that tube amps need a load, you have narrowed the question down to 'do these Class D solid amps need any protection or can you just make a simple A/B toggle box'.
I'd like to hear the definitive answer to this question too.
This company has a studio solution including a total overkill 4 amp, 4 speaker switcher. But this unit could be a solution if you needed the load protection. Or even if not.
http://www.delisleguitar.com/shop/de-lisle-amp-speaker-selector-v1/ |
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Jack Goodson
From:
new brockton,alabama (deceased)
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 11:34 am Vegas?
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| The Vegas won't solve the weight problem unless you build a light weight cabinet for the chassis, and a cabinet with a light weight speaker. But then you have a super amp that will handle any venue....thanks jack |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 11:47 am
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Jon
That is exactly what I think I'm looking for. The price is also very reasonable.
I want to research and find out if an SS amp requires a load. If not then I already have a Radial BigShot Amp-Switcher ABY. I use it to connect both Steel and Tele to my Roland Cube 80XL. Basically I reverse the input and outputs and use it as an AB/Y. Great unit that's no longer made.
Now the question is can I use it to connect two amps to one cab.
Update -------
I've contacted both Quilter and Carvin for a definitive answer. But this is on their website.
https://carvinaudio.com/blogs/guitar-bass-education/using-your-amp-without-speakers-connected-here-s-when-you-can-and-can-t
Now the question is will switching with the amps on cause some sort of transient spike that fries the amp?
Doubtful but I just want to be sure.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 11:53 am
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| I'm almost (99% but not 100%) certain that solid state with no load is no problem. But what I know nothing about is the switching itself and the shorting potential there. With tube amps, an open connection is a no-no. With a solid state, it is a closed, shorted connection that is a problem (or so I understand....) |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 12:15 pm
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Jack,
I appreciate your suggestion. Obviously you are partial to a Vegas 400. I think they are great amps as well. But unfortunately even splitting it to a head only unit I estimate the weight around 40Lbs.
My BX500 and Cab are 8 Lbs and 22 Lbs respectively. A Quilter 101 Mini Head would add another 2 Lbs maybe.
I use a hand cart all the time and when I can't the other band members are really good about helping me with my U-12. I even have them in split cases.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Pit Lenz
From:
Cologne, Germany
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 1:49 pm
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Leaving the speaker output open (unconnected) will harm a tube amp but not a transistor amp. If you are still worried, I suggest this A-B box:
http://www.palmergear.com/pga02.shtml
That should get you covered...
Pit |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2017 2:27 pm
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Ollin, whichever switch configuration you select, it must use switches that are "break before make". That means the first amp's output will be disconnected from the speaker before the second amp's output is connected. You don't want both amps' outputs to short together...even for a fraction of a second.......bad, bad, bad.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2017 10:37 am
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You could try having a dummy load resistor or small speaker on the tube amp output, with the regular speaker in parallel, and switch the speaker from one amp to the other. This would keep a load on the tube amp in either case.
The total impedance would be lower for the tube amp with the speaker connected, so matching output impedance would be a good idea. That requires having a speaker that is higher impedance than the tube amp requires, and matching the impedance of the SS amp. For example if the SS amp is ok with 8 ohms, and the tube amp is ok with 4 ohms, you could wire another 8 ohm load in parallel with an 8 ohm speaker on the tube amp, giving 4 ohms total.
In order to minimize the possibility of switch arc'ing think the safest thing is to shut them both down , switch the speaker, then power up the one with the speaker on it. I would not switch speaker with an amp on, whether connecting or disconnecting, unless you like the possibility of a magic smoke show. (you or the amp smoking), since you are in contact with the A-B box and switching a high power source. Your call 
Also I would make sure the A-B box can handle a load like that, and the resistor or additional speaker used can handle the output wattage of the tube amp.
To avoid all this, isn't it possible to A-B on the input side, using one amp with channel switching?
Me?? I would seek a way to switch the input side..
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 29 Mar 2017 1:11 pm
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Carl
I appreciate your input. But I'm using two SS amps no tube amps involved here. I contacted Quilter and Carvin about their amps and opinions on this. I got a call back from a tech at Quilter and he said in regards to the 101 Mini Head that it would not be an issue.
I have not received a call from Carvin but I expect there is no issue there as well.
I also contacted delisle guitar that makes the de Lisle Amp-Speaker Selector V1 http://www.delisleguitar.com/shop/de-lisle-amp-speaker-selector-v1/
The tech there said the same thing. It would be no issue when connecting two SS amps. I asked about using a simple ABY box and he said that if I did it would need to be beefy enough to handle the signal load. He said something like the Radial Engineering Tonebone BigShot ABY Passive Switcher would be recommended.
It just so happens I have one of those. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/radial-engineering-tonebone-bigshot-aby-passive-switcher
So I think I have my answer with one exception. And this is a very BIG one. The Radial ABY has a switch for "both". It's designed to connect one instrument to two amps and has the option to route the instrument signal to both amps at the same time.
If I hit that switch by mistake he said it would definitely fry both amps. I'll need to remove that push button and put a piece of tape over it just in case on a dark stage I step on the wrong button.
UPDATE ----------------------------
I called Radial. The Tech says no way. The circuitry of the BigShot would not handle the speaker level. The traces (whatever that means) are not big enough to handle the signal.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields
Last edited by Ollin Landers on 29 Mar 2017 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2017 1:20 pm
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Sorry for the rant - I thought you had one tube amp and one SS amp..
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 4:35 am
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| Even though it would be another item to carry, why not just get a second lightweight cab with a 12" neo speaker to use with the Quilter? It would weigh less than your 15" cab and you wouldn't need to worry about connections. |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 4:49 am
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| Ollin Landers wrote: |
| ... The traces (whatever that means) are not big enough to handle the signal. |
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 5:11 am
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The tech meant that the traces on the the circuit board of the Radial unit are not big enough to handle the load. The traces are the little metal strips on the board that carry the signal. Think of them as the highway. You need a freeway and the ones on the Radial are the size of the single lane dirt road leading to Butcher Holler in Kentucky.
_________________
D.S. Rigsby |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 5:27 am
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Consider the fact that undersized speaker wire will get hot when pushed by too many watts. This is a good illustration of the fact that there is a huge difference between the power handling capability of something such as a box with small circuit traces intended for handling a guitar pickup's output and something that can handle a speaker's output.
Bottom line is that it looks like the de Lisle is made for exactly this application. An acquaintance made me familiar with this from his use in his recording studio with many amps, many speaker cabs. |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Mitch Druckman
From:
Arizona, USA
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 8:13 am
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I spoke with Radial and the technician said none of their products will do what I'm trying to accomplish.
I can use the Radial HeadBone but I'll have to put an ABY in front of the input to allow me to connect two different instruments.
I suppose if this were easy to do then someone would have a product that does what I need. The Delisle switcher looks good but I don't know if it will hold up under the conditions I'm likely to put it through.
So I think I'm going the easy route. I really wanted to only carry one cab to gigs but it looks like the best way is a separate cab.
I'm going to purchase a Quilter 101 Mini and try it with my 15" cab I have now. If I like what I hear I will buy another cab and speaker. Maybe even mount the Mini Head inside the cab. Then I can get a speaker better suited to 6 string guitar.
Maybe one day if I save my pennies I can afford a Milkman 50W Sideman.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 8:44 am
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Put an ad on the Forum in Wanted To Buy - works for me!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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