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Topic: Moving to a 12 string Universal - best way to keep G# to F# |
Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 1:24 pm |
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Hello,
I am going to jump into the world of 12 string Universal. I play E9 more often than not currently. Is there a way to keep the Universal copedant functionality, but not lose the 6th string G# to F# drop that is a part of my E9 vocabulary?
Thanks!
Last edited by Brandon Schafer on 26 Mar 2017 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 1:50 pm
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| I don't follow. I play Uni 12 and I have the G#>F# lower. There's no need or reason to ditch it. |
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 1:56 pm
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| Okay, that's great! Can you please share your copedant? All the options I've found so far seem to omit that. It got me wondering if it was somehow incompatible with Universal tuning. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 2:01 pm
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http://www.williamsguitarcompany.com/E9_B6_Universal_Tuning.htm
Have a look at this; this is basically what I've been playing for years now.
There will be a learning curve, depending on your current setup, but this works well.
Don't forget that the g# lower needs to be on the opposite knee from your e lowers.
Good luck.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 2:06 pm
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My setup is far from standard. And, to say the least, it is loaded. But if it were only 7 + 5 I'd still have the G#>F# on the LKR where it is.
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 2:16 pm
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| There's a lot I like on that Williams setup. But coming from E9 with LKL raising the E's and RKL lowering, it's a bigger commitment (to change) than I wanted to make. So I opted for a more conservative setup from the E's stand point. I sometimes wish I'd gone for the whole right knee concept but too late. |
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 2:53 pm
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| So I think that Williams set up looks plausible, but my brain hurts considering switching my E's to the right side. Jon, you're over the top! I'm not smart enough to entertain all of what you're up to. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 3:09 pm
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"I'm not crazy enough to entertain all of what you're up to" would probably be a more accurate statement.
There's a reason for everything that's there but I will not say there's a need. I also have a very bare bones semi-universal 12 string that has more than enough to make music at 3 + 6 (and could come down to 3 + 5 before I'd start complaining). |
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 4:34 pm
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So, would having E's on the left and G# to F# lower on the RKL make the functions of a Universal not work? I've seen Universal copedants with E's on the left, but RKL usually seems to take F#s to G. I'm not savvy enough with C6 to fully understand what I could be losing.
Jon, I'm sure you've got all kinds of great reasons. I'm just not up to speed on what they'd be. And that's okay. I really am trying to see how I can get into Universal tuning without destroying my working E9 knowledge. Maybe a strong argument could be made that extended E9 would be better for me, but I believe I want to be able to expand my sonic vocabulary with Universal. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 4:50 pm
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Speaking for myself and only for myself, I use the G# lower strictly in the context of E9 (or in the context of 'it's one big tuning').
re: E's on the left, I have read people here testifying that the E lower on LKR for Uni works just fine and I believe them. But I want it on the right and I've got it on RKL. I can make a huge case for the E raise on RKR, eliminating the issue of compatibility of the F lever with Emmons/Day pedals and bad ankles. But I'm not up for big change at this point.
I also advocate for E raise & lower being on separate knees but that's not a huge issue. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 4:51 pm
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2017 4:57 pm
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Brandon, I don't play a universal but if I did I would lower my E's on the right knee. That allows you to play the 6th tuning with the E's lowered and you can play your 6th pedals without having to hold the knee with your left knee. As for getting used to moving your E's to Eb to the right knee will take just a few days to get used too.
Tony |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 1:14 am
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| Tony Dingus wrote: |
| I don't play a universal but if I did I would lower my E's on the right knee. That allows you to play the 6th tuning with the E's lowered and you can play your 6th pedals without having to hold the knee with your left knee. |
Well I do play one and what Tony imagines is correct. I would go further and say put the E lowers on RKR specifically; then your left foot has total freedom to roam over the B6 pedals. Many players claim to be content with leaving them on LKR, but no-one has yet come up with an explanation (let alone a demonstration) of how you can (e.g.) roll between pedals 5&6 (as you do A&B) with your knee constrained in that way.
| Tony Dingus also wrote: |
| As for getting used to moving your E's to Eb to the right knee will take just a few days to get used too. |
Yes, and while you're at, swap to the Day setup. Having A and 5 next to each other is priceless whereas the C pedal in 3rd position is a waste of space.
And to answer the original question, leave G#-F# where it's comfortable - it's an E9 change with no meaning in B6. Its absence from many uni copedents is only as puzzling as its absence from many E9 ones. Some people don't feel the need of it - I would be lost.
[I have not attached my copedent as it has some unhelpful idiosyncracies, but later I shall post a more conventional version.]
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 10:41 am
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This is what I would regard as a good starting point. It has all the basic changes you are likely to find in E9 or C6 instructional material.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 12:27 pm
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Brandon, you have probably realized by now that there will be many different takes on the "best" universal copedent. There are too many personal musical and ergonomic variables for this to be an easily answered question.
Here is another related thread to check out:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=270051
If conserving your current E9 vocabulary is a priority, I'd stay away from tuning string 2 to anything but D#. (Sorry, Jon & Ian)
Changing your E's over to the right knee might be a couple days, or an endless struggle; that depends completely on you.
that's my two bits' worth for now; no, don't thank me, I'll send an invoice.
Psst: check out the Excel Superb memphis slim has up for sale right now.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 1:44 pm
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Ok, Chris - I admit that most people would probably prefer this:-
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 1:48 pm
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Wow... So much information. Thank you all for your input! I feel like this arms me with enough food for thought to make an informed decision. I think I can manage E's on the left (lower with RKL) and use LKR to get my G# to F# lower I want to preserve.
Soon, I have a feeling I'll have some 10 string guitars to sell!
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 1:52 pm
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| Chris Reesor wrote: |
........(Sorry, Jon & Ian)........
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Emphatically, I show it because it's what I've got but I do NOT suggest it, recommend it, endorse it, or advocate for it. But I do like it.
It just is what it is. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 3:01 pm
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In the same spirit, here is what I use and like but would not try and sell to anyone
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Brandon Schafer
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 3:07 pm
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| Right now, I'm leaning toward something similar to what Ken posted earlier in this thread. It looks most like something I could wrap my head around. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 3:17 pm
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Note that there is an error on Ken's MSA chart, or some confusion, at least.
P6 shows 4th string raise to F and 8th string lower to D#.
With the E lower lever engaged, as intended in the Universal concept, the resulting actual notes are 4th string E and 8th string D. The 4th string is lowered by the lever and raised back up by P6. The 8th string is lowered an additional half step, after the lever's half step lower, by P6 |
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Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
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Posted 27 Mar 2017 6:54 pm Change
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Brandon, no need to lose that change. Tony wrote "I would lower my E's on the right knee" for reasons he stated which are correct. In addition, holding that Eb in with your RKR is not as tiresome as the RKL in my opinion.
_________________
MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
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