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Topic: So where are all the new Student Models? |
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 1:46 am |
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A student learning how to play does not need all the premium extras, yes a V-Pedal for certain but any small amp with a headphones out will suffice, we don't need a Nashville 400 out of the gate.
A student does not need another $1000 in accessories. Heck I practice mostly in headphones !
even a $400 Squire guitar needs an amp and a cord ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 8:47 am
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| Damir Besic wrote: |
| you can always buy a nice lap steel (lloyd started that way too) and see if the kid is interested in slide guitar , you can get a nice lap steel for $200 , if kid is playing and learning , and progressing , you can always upgrade to a Carter starter or Red Baron ,,,there is a lot of music to be played and a lot to learn before you'll need a $6000 guitar... |
True, but the contemporary music of the day was played on lap steels when Lloyd was learning. If a kid today is turned on by a pedal steel sound and is as instant-gratification obsessed as just about our entire culture is about everything, he will be disappointed from the get-go with a lap steel... except for blues-rock. I know this from experience as a private instructor.
Pedal steel is just one of those things that will require a greater upfront expenditure; not as much as a pro-level rig would cost, but still more than the lap-steel entry.
There's simply no easy way to make a pedal steel investment less than what it is.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 9:55 am
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I crack up every time this subject comes up. I agree with Herb. I think the only way to really bring down the cost would be if a company like Fender started mass producing them. Any company like that would laugh in your face if you even mentioned that to them. Not enough market. The steel guitar market is what it is.
Too bad. My neighbor's boyfriend's son (15) is possibly interested in steel guitar. I'm afraid to talk to them, although I think his dad can probably afford it to a point. I'll let him sit at my guitar and answer questions. He owns some halfway decent guitars (according what the dad told my wife - I haven't talked to him) and probably an amp.
A couple years ago, I had a young guy come up to me at a gig to talk about the steel guitar. When I told him it would probably cost $1000 and up just to get into used guitar, he just about soiled his pants. He did make a smartass comment about bieng able to buy a six string for $500. Since he was a smartass, I told him to go buy the six string.
Sometimes I feel bad when I tell them. It's like I squashed their dream.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 11:14 am
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Herb is right (as always.) It would be nice if somebody could make a pedal steel guitar tat costs under $1,000, but the fact is, it's not possible.
Earlier I asked if the carpsteel/legend and Simmons student guitars are still being made. Does anybody know?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 12:13 pm
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Al Brisco debuted his ABS guitar at this year's SWSGA and TSGA shows. It is very reminiscent of the much-lamented ETS guitar that Bud Carter and Larry Egan developed from the Carpsteel model.
I played his prototype in Phoenix and really enjoyed it. It would be a perfect fly-date guitar, especially if it were in a Brand X case.
It's a pro-level guitar, but I'm pretty sure the price will be under 2K.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 12:17 pm
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There are entry level pedal steels out there still. Fessenden and Hudson build 6&8 string pedal steels for relatively inexpensive. Hudson will build a 10 string as well.
Even a 6 string with a couple pedals will give a curious person the basic effect and function of a pedal steel
GFI SM guitars are reasonable.
Pedal steel guitars have always required some moderate investment. Even the Mavericks, Emmons SM's weren't cheap new. I paid $500 for my first guitar which was a student model. MSA Red Baron 3+1 in 1978.
Stage One, Justice basic S-10 not terribly expensive.
When compared with upscale electronic devices kids carry around today, they're not really that expensive. Or compare with the cost of some high school etc. band instruments.
At least, you can recover some of your investment with a steel guitar if you decide to quit it.
Who pays off a purchase these days anyway? I thought everybody just piles on to their credit cards.
JMO.  |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 1:36 pm
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Obviously pedal steel is a limited market, but I'm actually still surprised that we have yet to see any Chinese built pedal guitars.
For the sake of comparison, think about squareneck dobros. It's also a limited market, but there sure are a ton of imports out there under different brands.
Maybe the perception in the musical instrument industry is that having a pedal steel built in China is less like building a musical instrument and more like building something derived from rocket science. But the Chinese build no shortage of complex machinery - most of our homes are loaded with stuff that was manufactured in China.
If some enterprising steel builder took it on and knew how to work with these Chinese folks, I don't have any doubt that they could import an S-10 with 3/4 and probably retail the thing for $500-$550
I'm not saying I want one for myself, just a little surprised it hasn't happened yet.
I go into Home Depot and see some relatively nice tool sets made in China for some really cheap prices and I have no idea how they pull it off. I'm not saying these tools are in the same league in terms of quality as the Snap-On brand used by your local auto mechanic but the wrenches seem to have no problem loosening and tightening nuts and with a correct fit.
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Mark |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 3:05 pm
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| Mark Eaton wrote: |
| ...surprised that we have yet to see any Chinese built pedal guitars. |
A possible reason for that is because it would be nearly impossible to cobble together a pedal steel from cheap replica Tele and Strat parts. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 22 Mar 2017 3:53 pm
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well, if I was thinking like that, I would have never played a steel guitar... I heard pedal steel, and I loved it, however I didn't have money to buy one, so i bought a cheap banjo to practice my finger picking until I can afford to buy a pedal steel, and when I finally got a steel I was ahead... any excuse is a good excuse if you don't want something bad enough, if you want something bad enough you will make it work... 7 year old can't even reach the pedals, it is much better to buy him a nice lap steel for couple hundred bucks and have him start on playing then just say ha well, I cant afford it, and let him go play video games ... if we are talking about teenagers, then they can go get a summer job, and make enough to buy a Carter Starter or Red Baron, steel guitar will never be affordable as regular guitars, here you can get am acoustic for under 100 bucks, or electric for 20 bucks more... the easiest thing to do is to say, ha well, its too expensive... well, go play marimbas then i guess...
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https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Jim Williams
From:
Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!
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Posted 7 Jun 2017 8:01 am
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Bob, I would strongly consider starting him out on a lap steel. Depending on his musical taste, it could be a variety of tunings. On the other hand, if pedal steel is what he wants specifically I've heard good things about the GFI ones. If you bought a new one for $1000 - $1400 you probably would not lose a "lot" of money if you had to sell it down the road. Be very careful of used ones on Ebay.
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GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2017 8:12 am
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| Mark Eaton wrote: |
Obviously pedal steel is a limited market, but I'm actually still surprised that we have yet to see any Chinese built pedal guitars.
For the sake of comparison, think about squareneck dobros. It's also a limited market, but there sure are a ton of imports out there under different brands. |
I actually bought a Chinese squareneck resonator guitar, branded "Crestwood". It had a standard guitar nut, not raised, and classical tuners designed for nylon strings. It sounds like crap. The idea of a Chinese pedal steel scares me.
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 8 Jun 2017 7:47 am
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I've been involved in product development/sourcing projects in both Taiwan and China. I have more experience with Taiwan which is typically considered the "high end" choice between the two.
Both are capable of excellent quality and amazingly fast product development. That said developing products in either location is no where near as easy as the average person might think and very far from a slam dunk.
Quantity is the big qualifier for developing successful products in Asia. Based on my experience, developing a pedal steel for Asian mass production would be a very difficult, time consuming and expensive project. Developing a pedal steel of reasonable quality that would sell for under $1000 here would require quantities that would be difficult to justify given the teensy, tiny market worldwide.
I'd agree with Mark Eaton that the market for for Square neck resonators is not huge. I would also speculate that it is still much, much larger than the pedal steel market.
I would guess that it would take a minimum of $150-$250k to be spent by the time the first container of pedal steels would be ready to ship. That is if the project goes pretty smoothly. This amount includes travel, design and prototyping, tooling, trading company fees, project manager travel and wages, shipping, product cost, etc.
A successful pedal steel project in Asia would absolutely require a project manager on site with comprehensive knowledge of the instrument, materials and Asian manufacturing as well as a broad knowledge of manufacturing processes, methods and quality control. I would guess such a project would take a minimum of a year and probably more. This is a real requirement and must be considered in the cost of such a project
That's all the easy part! Marketing and selling the large quantity of steels to make such a project viable would pose the biggest challenge given the current market size.
I've done lot's of product development for my own company and as a freelance designer. The toughest part is usually determining how much money one is willing to lose should the project go south or prove unsuccessful. Given my experience
an Asian pedal steel project has a very low chance of success without a very large pile of cash, an onsite project manager and a hungrily growing market for the instrument itself.
As much as I'd love to see such a market....I have a hard time believing it can happen anytime soon. While the cost of development would probably not be significantly less if at all, some sort of reasonably priced electronic (non mechanical) version of a pedal steel seems (to me) a fair bit more viable as a candidate for mass production. |
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Mike Scaggs
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 8 Jun 2017 9:33 am
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| Damir Besic wrote: |
| you can always buy a nice lap steel (lloyd started that way too) and see if the kid is interested in slide guitar , you can get a nice lap steel for $200 , if kid is playing and learning , and progressing , you can always upgrade to a Carter starter or Red Baron ,,,there is a lot of music to be played and a lot to learn before you'll need a $6000 guitar... |
++1 on the lap steel
In my son's case he really wanted to play piano so I bought a professional Yamaha CP300 for him. He took off and is an amazing player after only 3 years. He was very inspired to play such a fine instrument and it paid off on spades. So I may thinking a little different than most but I think starting on a pro instrument will increase the desire to play and the speed that a young person will learn. Worked for me when I started and is working for my son now...
my 1 cent
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Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 8 Jun 2017 9:47 am
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Question: Would it be possible or practical for an Asian company like Samick to produce incomplete steels, with cabinets, a changer, and cross rods, and ship them to a builder here who would then add the bell cranks abd cross rods, and set them up with the buyer's copedants?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Jun 2017 10:08 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Question: Would it be possible or practical for an Asian company like Samick to produce incomplete steels, with cabinets, a changer, and cross rods, and ship them to a builder here who would then add the bell cranks abd cross rods, and set them up with the buyer's copedants? |
Yes, if you can order 1000 at a time.
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Jerry Recktenwald
From:
Louisville KY
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Posted 8 Jun 2017 2:53 pm
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I started about 8 years ago on a Rouge lap steel . They sell for $100.00 at Guitar Center This past Christmas I got a used GFI SM10 and having a lot of fun learning PSG. I'm 64 years old. I to started playing the guitar when I was in the 5th grade. I say buy used and save money and upgrade at a later date if you still want to play.
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If I couldn't play music I would go nut's.How do people go thru life and not have a hobby? life would be boring. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 9 Jun 2017 5:10 am
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| Damir Besic wrote: |
| you can always upgrade to a... Red Baron |
Don't do that. A Red Baron would be an upgrade only to a Little Buddy.
Entry level guitars have improved over the years, but so has the price, and they're better. And I should have not sold the Carpsteel.
There can't be a better way to learn steel than starting out on lapsteel. Not enough music on a six- or eight-stringer?
Who's Tom Morrell or Jerry Byrd? The price difference between pedal and non-pedal is high...
... but from my experience Mike Skaggs is right concerning pianos. I'm not sure about steels, just not enough experience,
but a piano is a bigger gamble price-wise, not to mention an airplane. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2017 10:53 am
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I agree with Damir and Charlie and Mike and anyone else who thinks lap steel makes a great entry level instrument to PSG. Eventually a player will realize they are different machines and both worthy of mastery, but for beginners, right and left hand technique are basically the same. Volume pedal can also be introduced at some point.
Rather than be totally discouraged by cost restrictions, why not save the big bucks for when it can be determined that the student has any affinity at all for slipping and sliding around on an 8- or 10-string non-pedal thing? I wonder how much difference pedals and levers would make if you can't play decent music on a lap steel, and I wonder what percentage of the great players began that way. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2017 11:54 am
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Something I rarely see come up in these threads is a review of the history of the same issuesĆ¢ā‚¬Ā¦ truthfully it's ALWAYS been expensive to get into Pedal SteelĆ¢ā‚¬Ā¦ and those who had the desire usually figured out how to do it. (And before Ebay and the internet.) The student models of the past are nearly all still as functional as when they were builtĆ¢ā‚¬Ā¦ cheap as they were, Mavericks just don't seem to wear outĆ¢ā‚¬Ā¦ and are still circulating in the market. Every year there are more used pro models on the market as well, and many at reasonable prices.
I run into a LOT of younger players who want to get into steel but are hampered by financesĆ¢ā‚¬Ā¦ and a LOT of players who found a fairly inexpensive way to make it happen.
Steel has always been a kind of niche instrument and the market forces that would provide cheap quality instruments just don't seem to exist. Perhaps we should be glad.
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www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2017 12:08 pm
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| Mark van Allen wrote: |
| Steel has always been a kind of niche instrument and the market forces that would provide cheap quality instruments just don't seem to exist. Perhaps we should be glad. |
Excellent point; no disagreement here. |
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 9 Jun 2017 12:36 pm So where are all the new Student Models?
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The title to this thread reads "So where are all the new Student Models?
I would say, Where are all the students?
All down through time, the market dictates what needs to be available.
Most all the PSG builders except a few are custom builders.
It would be nice to have a few on the floor to sell when you get a call for it, but Custom builders don't have that time to spare.
So, with not that many students popping up, it don't make much since to build student models ahead of the orders.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2017 4:51 pm
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When I decided to learn marimba, I bought Yamaha's student model. It was $1800. I would have bought a vibraphone, but they start at about $2600.
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 9:23 am
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FWIW - I considered a student model but for less money I was able to get into a 1974 MSA D10 Classic 5+8.
Then later when I got to where I could play some stuff I considered a student model again because the MSA is heavy. 
Still playing the same MSA. |
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Jason King
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2017 12:15 pm
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| I think a strong selling point of some of the high quality s-10 models available is that they bring close to what you paid for them if a student decides its not for them. |
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