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Topic: Right hand positioning |
Andrew Srubas
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 9:27 am |
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So I have been working with the Winnie Winston book and I am really working on the blocking exercises. I have a question about my ring and pinky fingers. Is it crucial to have them stick out and not curled under? I can manage ok with my pinky out and my ring finger under but to have both stick out hurts my hand. The most comfortable is to have both finger curled up into my hand. I tried to take photo of each option I'm talking about. It has been difficult to compare with photos/videos from other players. My hand and fingers are pretty long but very skinny. Most pictures are of folks with shorter thicker hands.
Does any one think these differences are worth addressing? Any ideas are welcome. Thanks in advance!!!
AJ |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 9:35 am
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If you curl them under, just don't let them droop onto the strings.
I curl mine.
Here's a video of me playing. Admittedly, my hand's not as clean as it could be, but it's not horrible.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VOnjXoHvOng
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 6 Mar 2017 9:52 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 9:47 am
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| Nice looking Bud, tho ... |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 11:30 am
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My hand is very similar to yours, with long skinny fingers, and I am also a novice working with the Winnie book. My hand position is closer to what yours is in the 3rd photo, but my pinky is in more of a relaxed curl rather than curled under. I'm trying to avoid tension wherever possible without detracting from the effort needed for blocking, and sometimes that pinky needs to extend a little.
Pick blocking gets only a brief mention in the book, but I have been watching Joe Wright's videos on the subject and am considering it's validity, which seems to be at least as significant as palm blocking. I see no reason not to develop both techniques and be able to use whatever gets the job done. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 11:39 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I'm trying to avoid tension wherever possible |
That's the crucial thing. Everyone's hands are different shapes and sizes, so you can't always copy another individual however much you would like to.
Having your unused fingers curled under is probably going to give greater freedom of movement to the ones you are using, and so less tension.
Oh, and Andrew, your first picture looks best, which surely says something.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 12:27 pm
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Looks a little awkward to me. You are picking with the sides of the picks an angle along side the string. It may be a bit counter productive. Shoot me a note and I'll show you what I mean on skype or facetime.
_________________
Bob |
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Andrew Srubas
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 1:01 pm
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| Yes. I have noticed this bit about the "side of the pick". Ever since I learned that you are suppose the keep your base knuckle of your index finger up with a nice "C" shape in your thumb and index (as opposed to having you hand squished down flat) I have had the issue with picking with the side of the pick. Also, clipping the part of the pick around my finger on the string above the one I want to play. This seems to be more relative to those of us with long skinny finger when I see short rounder shaped hands, the fingers look like they come more straight down. I could try to take a video of me picking if that might help. Would have to wait til tomorrow morning though. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 1:34 pm
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It would be so much more easy and productive to communicate directly. I know exactly what you are doing wrong and I know how to show you how to fix it. It is very simple and the length of your fingers has nothing to do with it. Just get in touch. It will only take 15 minutes.
_________________
Bob |
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Dennis Lee
From:
Forest Grove, Oregon, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 2:07 pm Right Hand
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| I would invest the time to check out Jeff Newman's "Right Hand Alpha" dvd. Good information! |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 3:43 pm
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The side of the pick blade is where the meat is. It's also where the tone is. Don't let anyone tell you different. Pull your elbow in close to your ribs and pretend you're gripping a ping pong ball with your ring and pinky finger. If it's more comfortable to let the pinky stick straight out, do that. Moving your hand to your left away from the pickup a couple inches will result in a fatter tone too.
Another vote for the Right Hand Alpha course. Jeff and his teaching methods probably turned out more successful professional players than anyone.
Here's a photo of the best right hand in the business FYI.
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 6 Mar 2017 4:37 pm
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Here's a photo of the best right hand in the business FYI.
To go with Jerry's image of Buddy's right hand, here is a quote from Buddy Emmons on how he utilizes his palm and third finger to mute.
"I use (pick with) the thumb and second finger, muting with the palm edge and third finger. There are two occasions for using the palm edge. One, when picking with the thumb, and the other when going from a lower string to one higher. When going from a high string down to a lower string always use the third finger to mute."
After playing for a while, I always end up with a crease on my third finger tip.
My picks are worn on the edge...
_________________
Jerry Jones |
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Zeke Cory
From:
Hinsdale, New York USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 1:08 am Another vote for the Newman method
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| It took me a year to settle into Jeff Newman's method but it works and works well when you get it down. Jeff always stressed to pick the strings going by in a sideways motion with the thicker side of the finger picks. Speed and tone is much better there. While this all works for me, everyone is built different and each person need to find the angle that works best for them. Jeff's advice is a great place to start from in any case. jmho. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 7:30 am
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| Quote: |
| ... I can manage ok with my pinky out and my ring finger under but to have both stick out hurts my hand. |
Then why in the world are you trying to do it? The key to comfortable playing is a relaxed hand and wrist, and your hand just looks tight and stressed. |
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Andrew Srubas
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 8:15 am pinky
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Mr. Winson's hand does not have his third and fourth finger tucked up into his palm. They aren't sticking straigh out either although he tries to have you start that way. (At least that is how I read it) He goes on to say that it is ok if those two finger curl as you get more comfortable he does not say to tuck them up though.
If I tuck up both of them. It does feel like my pinky could be getting in the way of my palm, which seems bad to me. Like, I want the meat of my palm to stop the string not my bone-y little finger. |
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Andrew Srubas
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 9:53 am Re: pinky
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| Andrew Srubas wrote: |
| Mr. Winson's hand does not have his third and fourth finger tucked up into his palm. They aren't sticking straigh out either although he tries to have you start that way. (At least that is how I read it) He goes on to say that it is ok if those two finger curl as you get more comfortable he does not say to tuck them up though. |
The Winston/Keith book is obviously one of the standards regarding the demonstration of the pedal steel's basic functions and how they can be applied to familiar traditional tunes. It is not a great book on technique, and I am reasonably certain it is not meant to be one. It is possible to read between the lines here and there though.
It is not really helpful to say that everyone's hand is different and whatever position works is okay, especially when you cannot find the position that works for you. If you hold your arm straight out in front of you, bent at the elbow with your wrist in line with your forearm as if you were sitting at your steel, with your fingers relaxed, they form a natural curl. You can apply that configuration to the steel, resting your hand on the strings, and adjust to picking and blocking as necessary. One look at the photo in this thread of Buddy Emmons' right hand verifies this approach.
There is one paragraph in the Win book that covers picking a string, letting it ring, then bringing the side of your palm down to mute. I have not taken that inconspicuous instruction lightly. Do it with each finger (and thumb) on every string and minimize the movement it takes to both pick and block. Eventually, the palm blocking movement should become nearly imperceptible. Make sure you give the string a good solid whack too, while keeping the other fingers as relaxed as possible. Then work on the rolls as described in the book, but do them extremely slowly. Focus on what each finger is doing and don't worry about playing in time until you can get a grip on the technique. This also does double duty by creating muscle memory for locating strings with any finger.
Incidentally, entire books have been written on finger picking technique, which is another aspect of playing steel that instruction books seem to assume the student can work out on their own or has already mastered.
I am still working on all this stuff myself, btw. It is part of my practice routine every day. I have thrown pick blocking into the mix, too. I suppose because life is not complicated enough already  |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 9:33 pm
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Wow! You realy have your wrist twisted sideways! I play with my wrist and hand flat and straight. I angle the fingerpicks slightly so they hit the strings flat, not on an angle, Very different from yours. I don't curl my ring and pinky under either. Different strokes I guess. I get a very clean, clear sound from that method.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 9:35 pm Re: embarrassing
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You need some stickem for your fingers. I use spit. My own, of course...keeps the picks from slipping.
Your picking is not that bad. Looks like you wear your picks with a lot of shank sticking down from your fingertips. I would find that very awkward, but I have seen other players who do it so that is probably not the problem. The problem is your wrist is bouncing to high off the strings after you pick.
We're reinventing the wheel with this thread, so here is an excellent discussion on the topic from a previous era on the forum.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=200502
Pick blocking. My 2c. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 9:38 pm
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I keep the tips of my picks very close to the tips of my fingers. Almost feels like picking with bare fingers. Very accurate.Having used the same picks for 25/30 years, my fingertips are the same shape as my picks! No stickum required.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2017 10:56 pm
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| John Billings wrote: |
| I keep the tips of my picks very close to the tips of my fingers. Almost feels like picking with bare fingers. |
Same here. Thumbpick & barefingers on 6 string since dirt, so I choke way up on the finger picks. Lucky you on the stickum. My hands get very dry in the winter, so I gotta slop up the fingertips.
What part of Ohio, John? I'm from Avon Lake, just west of Cleveland. |
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Andrew Srubas
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 8 Mar 2017 9:32 am
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| Anyone want to post some pics or videos of their right hands? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2017 10:14 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| My hands get very dry in the winter, so I gotta slop up the fingertips. |
The standard alloy of fingerpicks makes this worse.
The zinc dries the skin and the copper turns it green.
I paint the inside of my fingerpicks with clear nail polish to perform three functions:
1) it helps them stay on
2) it protects the skin from the drying of the zinc
3) my fingertips don't turn green.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2017 10:17 am
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[Anyone want to post some pics or videos of their right hands?]
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZteC9gapEI
Nope it's not my right hand, which you would not learn anything from watching. But here you can see how a master is doing exactly what you want to be doing and explaining how to do it. He even wears his picks similar to the way you do.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 8 Mar 2017 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2017 10:20 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
I paint the inside of my fingerpicks with clear nail polish to perform three functions:
1) it helps them stay on
2) it protects the skin from the drying of the zinc
3) my fingertips don't turn green. |
Thanks, Lane, I'll give this a shot. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2017 11:43 am Re: Right hand positioning
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| Andrew Srubas wrote: |
So I have been working with the Winnie Winston book and I am really working on the blocking exercises. I have a question about my ring and pinky fingers. Is it crucial to have them stick out and not curled under? |
Winston says to start learning with your pinkie out, but after working with that for a while, it's OK to curl it under if that ends up being more comfortable. This is you, so you're not breaking his method. LOTS of great steelers curl fingers under.
From the book, in the section on palm blocking, page 48:
"Make sure that the finger is still straight with the back of the hand."
"You will find that as you get more proficient at blocking your hand will start to assume a curled position. Some people find it comfortable to leave the little finger extended, and some curl it under a bit, as if the hand were grasping a ball. Although this is the position that many steel players use, I have found it hard to get used to if you start with it. By starting with your little finger extended you will find that the blocking is easier. If you naturally find the other position more comfortable, it will happen by itself." |
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