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Topic: Value of PSG and Lap steel Value |
Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 9:33 am |
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Just curious about some things I've observed on the for sale section. Looking for some opinions, but not start any fights.
1) What makes some lap-steels (non-vintage) expensive , i.e. <$1200? I generally don't think of a lap steel as a requiring the same level of craftsmanship, wood quality, or machining as I would a PSG or Acoustic instrument.
2) With the rash of wraparound Emmons Guitars going for ~$10-15K I keep seeing comments about them being great investments.... I also see comments on the forum about a lack of interest in PSG from younger players or the industry. So my question.... is an expensive PSG really a great investment?
This is not intended to be a slight at any seller or buyer or maker.... just something I've been thinking about and curious other opinions. I hit a lot of garage sales/flea markets so it's something I think about.
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MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 11:46 am
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Jon, JMO of course but I believe the answer to both would lie in market forces. I suspect the higher priced laps you've seen lately started out at a higher retail and, hence, command a higher resale value. Asher pro or Harper models being a good example. Emmons Push-pulls in general, and Franklins, have long held a lot of desirability for various reasons, neither are being built today and have steadily risen in value. Kind of the definition of investment potential. I expect to see other brands joining the club as time goes by, but it's going to relie on demand from players and collectors.
When I first started playing professionally in the late 70's , you could go into any music store and buy a mint vintage telecaster for $2-225, with no regard to year. Time travel would be handy!
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 12:28 pm
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Hello Jon, I was once in this business a long time ago.
At that time, and no doubt it is still much the same, the Chinese could build and ship an Instrument here to my country, pay Import Duty and sell at a price lower than I could buy the hardware alone, so in answer to number 1) If you want to retain the jobs in the USA as your new President says he wants to do, it will cost a bit more.
If you are not too concerned about Craftsmanship or quality of materials, then you would buy the Chinese model.
In the case of $10 - $15k Instruments, ( I was going to wander into Fender Strat & Telecaster country where these figures wouldn't even buy the case, but I will resist that)
We are in Beanie Baby territory here where you have to convince the Idio!!sorry - Buyer that this thing you have is sprinkled with Fairy Dust and has a sound only those tuned to the sound of Angels can hear, if it was a Bigsby or an original Stradivarius I would listen to Investment talk without laughing, in general, you will never get back more than you paid, stay away from Snake Oil Salesmen.
James. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 1:11 pm
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Jon, I'm confused by the first question above.
Are you referring to greater than or less than $1200?
greater than = >
less than = <
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Mark |
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Mike Flick
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 1:52 pm
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| Are those Emmons really selling for 10 to 15k or is that the asking price? |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 2:24 pm
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Except when a price is listed, and negotiations take place between the eventual buyer and seller, I would say the vast majority of the time we don't know what the guitar ended up selling for.
If it's something like a vintage Strat, Tele, Les Paul or Martin D-28 I think one can ascertain that actual market value better than a lot of instruments residing in the much smaller world of steel guitar.
With the instruments I mentioned above there is a more clear understanding of something like a "blue book" value, sort of like established pricing on used cars based on mileage and condition.
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Mark |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 2:38 pm
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Strats and Teles, Les Pauls, etc etc? Old Martins? Well, they're certainly listed at high prices but, as has been said, we don't know the eventual outcome. It's safe to say, though, that there are a fair number of potential buyers out there for such fare.
There are, literally, millions who are well aware of these marques and their potential value. Only a relative handful would actually pay it and we've seen a couple of noted vintage dealers take down their shingle in recent years but I'm sure there's a market of sorts out there.
Steel guitars? There are only a few thousand who even know what we're discussing here and, I'm sorry to say, that number is diminishing with every passing year. I have grave doubts that those paying five figures for p/pulls or Franklins will ever see their money back.
I just hope they're buying them for the sake of owning the instrument.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 3:41 pm
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Back to one of the original questions, Jon hasn't returned to his thread to clarify if he is referring to modern lap steels selling in excess of $1200 - but I assume that's what he means. There is the apparent perception that lap steels wouldn't right off be selling for higher prices because they would seem to be a simpler instrument to build than not only a pedal steel guitar, but a very good quality standard electric guitar.
As far as the small club of top builders of lap steels, for anyone who hasn't played and studied the hand work up close and personal at the higher end of scale, I think you'd change your mind after a thorough perusal.
Some of the electric lap steels coming from these builders are incredible instruments that warrant the price.
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Mark |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 7:52 pm
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Well, manufacturers may be getting that ($1200-$1500) for a new, single-neck, lap steel...but they won't be getting it from me! 
Of course, an awful lotta bozos out there pay over $5 for a cup of coffee, so nothing really surprises me these days. |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2017 9:39 pm
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Sorry guys. Indeed I meant greater than $1200.
I suppose they must be worth it if they sell, but I just struggle to see that the labor/price is anywhere close to a mandolin, guitar, violin,etc all of which have a mini lapsteel glued to them,a killer finish and an incredibly tough to build tone chamber.
For PSG, I'm pretty confident the wraparounds are selling for five figures. In another thread I was reading about the lack of new manufacturers. I suppose one scenario where the value would hold would be if there are no new steel manufacturers and we end up with sort of a fixed supply of steels. Sort of like classic cars in Cuba.
Specific to Emmons, parts are already scarce for PPs, and there really aren't many PP experts. PPs are just not that easy to deal with. Its shocking to see almost every high dollar PP has the comment "gone through tuned up by XXXXX Expert".
I got to fiddle with a nice vintage push pull and a Franklin and they do feel nice. So does a really well setup MSA. Also I see cool mechanics on things like a Blanton, or BMI, or MCI and I'm equally interested in them.
Obviously to each their own and I certainly would be more than excited to find a Franklin or Emmons one in my grandmother's basement, but I'm just not sure the demand will exist long term.
_________________
MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2017 4:50 pm
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| Stuff will sell for what people are willing to pay. IMHO some people have more money than they do brains. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 25 Feb 2017 10:35 pm
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| Quote: |
| Its shocking to see almost every high dollar PP has the comment "gone through tuned up by XXXXX Expert". |
why is that shocking to see?? why would it be shocking that someone takes his expensive vintage guitar to the best guy there is?? it's not just that is not shocking, it is perfectly normal... it would be shocking to me to see the ad where someone is selling his expensive instrument, and saying it was setup and restored by local Joe Blow in his kitchen ... now that would make me scratch my head ...
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https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Robert Parent
From:
Gillette, WY
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Posted 26 Feb 2017 4:59 am
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In my view a nice, used, D10 goes for about $3K-$4.5K in today's dollars. This closely follows the market price of say 20 years ago plus 'true' inflation and you have what they are selling for today. I don't see this changing much in the future assuming the market stays roughly the same size. However, there appears to be fewer young steel players so prices may likely be less just due to supply and demand.
People are free to spend their money however they like, but for me, $15K for a D-10 in today's dollars would not be a sound investment. Setup is important, but I for one have not had great luck with the so-called pros, it's buyer beware.
Robert |
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Jon Schimek
From:
Lyons, Co - USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2017 8:49 pm
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Hey damir,
I didn't do a good job expressing my point there. Its not shocking to have it gone through per se, especially for a crazy vintage steel but I am shocked that it's so critical for a PP to be setup and that there are only a very small handful of folks that are trusted. The point that I wanted to make: These can be tricky to dial in and I wonder how that impacts the long term value of these PP specifically.
I could take a vintage martin or fender to 5 different places within an hours drive who are legitimately qualified. There are like five guys in the country for a pp.
I absolutely see why one would want one of these icons of steel....I'm just not sure how that changes over time.
Jon
_________________
MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
Nashville 400 w/blackbox, Space Echo. |
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