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Topic: Sho Bud rack and barrel adjustments-balancing G#s on E9 |
Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 6:08 pm |
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Hi folks. I have an old crossover that looks terrible but sounds amazing. I've had a few ShoBuds in the last 25 years but never really had a rack and barrel. I love everything about that system except when engaging my B pedal (G#'s to A) the high note has a much quicker response and the low one, and that messes me up a bit since my current steels have balanced pulls. Are there any tricks to improving or getting the pull a little more balanced with switching to a wound 6th (G#) string?
Thank you
Dave
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 6:25 pm
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That's the chink in r&b's armor. Maybe there's some trick to lessen it, but I'm not aware of any.
Not sure a wound 6th (22w?) would help, since it's still going to be the 3rd string that needs the most travel, so whatever you have on the 6th will still engage later.
It's just something you have to deal with when you play rack & barrel. |
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Paul Malta
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 6:58 pm
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Have you looked at the barrel on the rod for that string? They can get stuck and not allow a fine tune of the rod. I would check the barrels for both rods on that pedal. I have a '73 Bud that works perfectly but it took a while for me to get the hang of setting up the barrels so that they function properly. I learned a lot about this by searching the forum for "rack and barrel"... Lots of great stuff written about it and how to troubleshoot and tune it.
Good luck, gotta love those old Buds!
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:16 pm
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I wonder if Sid might make a 22W with a core of 10 and a wind of 6. That would react closer to the same. The problem is that if you have a 20P and a 12P both pulling the same pitch, the 20 has much less far to go.
If you switch to a normal 22W, you'll have the other problem, since it's most likely to have a core of 8 and a wind of 7.. Core size determines how much travel you need (and a plain string is all core).
Since you can't time pulls on that guitar, you'll have to get used to it. Some people regard the notchiness as part of the mojo of the older units, kinda like feeling the secondaries open up on a 4 barrel carb, a sensation missing in a fuel injected motor.
I keep meaning to ask Sid (of Live Steel Strings) about the feasibility of a 22LC (Large Core) string to get the faster response. I play a 12 third string, but I bet the throws would be easier to balance with the bigger core.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:37 pm
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| Quote: |
| It's just something you have to deal with when you play rack & barrel. |
That's what I was afraid of...... 
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Paul Malta
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:05 pm
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| I've always used a 22w on my Bud so like I said, adjusting the barrels to get the rods to engage at their respective points for the correct travel for both G# strings is the key. This has always worked for me.. my axe is in unison for the B pedal, throughout its travel, no lag. Go figure. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:31 pm
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Paul, do you use a 10 for the 3rd?
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Paul Malta
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:36 pm
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| Yep.. ! Good match between 22w & 10...? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:39 pm
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It'll be almost as close as you can get.
8 vs 10. With a slight variation tension.
If you want to run a 12, I still think a 22W-LC would be a good thing.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 8:50 pm
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Use a .012p for the 3rd string and a .022w Nickle for the 6th string. Tighten the lower return spring; all the way tight for the 3rd string. Loosen the lower return spring as much as you can for the 6th string so it barely doesn't move.
Make sure the pedal rod for the 3rd string is connected to the ball in the closest hole to pedal bar and 6th being furthest.
That may get them really really close to pull together; and make sure you are using Jagwire Strings; as they have the best consistent tension for much longer time and take the less amount of tension to pull same gauge string as other brands.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 9:19 pm
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Thanks Ricky!! 
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 9:15 am
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
Make sure the pedal rod for the 3rd string is connected to the ball in the closest hole to pedal bar and 6th being furthest.
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I don't understand this part of your post. Not sure what parts you're referring to. (I've never dealt with a rack-and-barrel; I'm familiar with two-hole puller and barrel.) |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 10:23 am
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| Dave, you can place a spring on the rod between the rack and the barrel to force string 6 to engage sooner. You give up the ability to tune the pull easily from the end plate though, will require you to reach underneath to adjust that barrel. You also need to flip the rack around backwards (open side toward changer) and place a small flat washer that moves freely but fits fairly snugly around the rod against the rack to keep the spring from feeding into the oblong hole in the rack. You'll have to experiment a little to get the right length and weight spring, but they are readily available at any hardware store. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 11:52 am
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Brint;
sorry, forget the pedal rod thing, both strings are on the same pedal...
.duh....ha
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com
Last edited by Ricky Davis on 14 Feb 2017 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 12:18 pm
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| Changing the leverage on the pedal won't make any difference in timing two pulls on the same pedal as Dave is trying to do here. I think that may be what prompted Brint's question. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 1:25 pm
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| That's right, Ian. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 1:55 pm
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Oops sorry, my brain injury got in the way, yes forget the pedal rod thing, both strings are on same pedal...ha...duh.
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 2:01 pm
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But also leave raise spring on 3rd string and take off raise spring for 6th.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 4:21 pm Rig it up?
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Far as I know you can't get them to move together because the high G# needs a longer pull and the other very little.
If you really want that to happen I have an untried idea how you can rig it up.
You really have to struggle to think of what to to on the 6 pedals with the E9th tuning.
Leave the High G# barrel where it is and put the lower G# on the rack for pedal 5 or 6.
Then rig up some funky rod and spring to pull from your B pedal rack and yank the rack with the lower G# on it.
Then you can take out most of the slack.
I've had many rack and barrel Sho Buds and even a Mullen with that.
That issue never bothered me once.
Well that my 2¢ worth, Just send a check if you use the idea.
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Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
Last edited by Andy DePaule on 14 Feb 2017 5:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 5:08 pm
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| Quote: |
| Some people regard the notchiness as part of the mojo of the older units |
I'm with Lane on this. I think it's a case of seeing that the beauty is in the flaws.
fwiw, I never noticed it to be a problem in all the years I played a rack & barrel gtr. But that's just me. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2017 12:30 pm
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Well I can relate to guitar mojo and will possible learn to live with it, but I did rig up a solution if anyone is interested. I took a rod with a nylon tuner on the end and bent it so the raise rod would go through the lower rack of the B pedal. I spun the rack around and shoved a brass locking barrel inside so now the high G# pulls to the A note quicker....still not perfect but improved. The problem now if that the C pedal has a way longer throw than the B pedal. I got the idea from Tom Bradshaw.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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