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Topic: Picking upwards? |
John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2017 12:55 pm |
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I'd like to hear from players, regarding the angle of their finger picks as they play through a string.
Searches bring up plenty about hand position, but not actual pick direction.
I've been working up speed on double stops, pick blocking type licks, where you are playing consecutive dyads with your fingers. I noticed that if I curl my fingers under and pick upwards toward the middle palm, the speed comes easier.
I began experimenting with this as general technique. I can play faster this way. It also leaves your cuticles in position to mute higher adjacent strings.
However, the tone of picking a string upwards is less warm, more bright. That direction can sound warmer if you approach from an angle.
FWIW, I started out playing steel using the Newman palm blocking approach. I've been experimenting with the PF/TT picking blocking style recently.
The Newman hand position not does work as well, for me, on these consecutive double stop licks. I can get better speed and muting by picking upwards on the string(curling the fingers upward), or just the opposite, by leaning the hand back on the wrist and playing downward on the strings with the fingers more extended.
I'm curious if you guys are aware of any upward direction(or downward) of your finger picks as you play?
Thanks, John |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Feb 2017 2:34 pm
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I'm a relative beginner who tries to practice what Newman preaches in his Right Hand Alpha video. When I do what I think he's doing, my fingers are bent well back on themselves and I certainly feel as though I'm picking upwards, or at least not downwards.
I am pleased with the sound and I am also learning to pick block like this, which doesn't come as naturally as with a more vertical finger position; but I'm convinced it can be done so I persevere.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 4 Feb 2017 4:59 pm
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Totally bad advice. Absolutely contradicts everything I was taught by Buddy Charleton and everybody else who could make steel sound good.
More later.. gotta run.
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Bob |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 4 Feb 2017 6:40 pm
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In my experience working and studying with some truly great players. Also carefully trying to figure out how to make a pedalsteel sound good by asking questions and watching players that got a beautiful rich clear sound it was pretty consistent.
Players pick firmly Getting as much of the fat part of the pick on the string by picking sorta downward through the string . It is like a rest stroke the classical guitar players use.
Clawing at the strings like a banjo player leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to tonal control.
I'm trying to envision using my cuticles to block and it seems truly awkward and counter productive.
I welcome all who disagree to explain themselves.
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Bob |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2017 6:49 pm Right Hand
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| One thing I can add to this thread is that "To make a PSG sound good is all in the right hand" 35 years here. Your signature sound is there. |
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Bryan Staddon
From:
Buffalo,New York,
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Posted 4 Feb 2017 7:25 pm I'm confused ( not unusual)
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Hi , I'm confused by the info here, I'd like to know about "sorta downward " in Bobs post.
1 because I've heard Bob play on YouTube and it sounds great,
2 I feel like I'm always pulling my picks upward sorta, or at least sideways. To go down wouldn't you have to hit it with the front of the pick , like flat picking downstrokes on a regular 6 string? Am I missing something, thanks I'm always tone hunting and looking for new info.
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You are me as I am you |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2017 12:57 am Re: Picking upwards?
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| John Goux wrote: |
... I started out playing steel using the Newman palm blocking approach.…I can get better speed and muting by picking upwards on the string(curling the fingers upward), or just the opposite, by leaning the hand back on the wrist and playing downward on the strings with the fingers more extended…. I'm curious if you guys are aware of any upward direction(or downward) of your finger picks as you play?
Thanks, John |
John,
I don’t think that Jeff Newman ever claimed to teach “the only way to pickâ€â€”he just taught the basics of what worked for him to give new players a starting point.
Try this experiment: take off your fingerpicks (leave the thumbpick on), and try playing something on the steel. I suspect you will notice that picking upwards is the natural motion. And I think most players simply shape their fingerpicks to facilitate that motion. (I’ve heard that both Buddy Emmons and Bobbe Seymour would sometimes play without fingerpicks for a different tone.)
If what you are asking about when you say “picking downward†is extending your fingers straight down and picking straight back without curing your fingers upwards, I would think that would be pretty unusual-- because you are not using your finger muscles very effectively that way. If you take a look at close-ups of well-known steel players—and there are many on YouTube—I think you will see all of them picking upwards; I cannot recall ever seeing anybody who picked “downwardâ€.
Perhaps you are trying to describe an “arched†hand posture; someone who exclusively pick-blocks, like Paul Franklin or Joe Wright, usually keeps their right-hand arched above the strings (making their fingers more extended) than players like JD Maness or Doug Jernigan who (it looks to me) use a combination of pick-blocking and palm-blocking and so must flatten their right-hand--but their fingers still curl upwards when they pick.
Whatever you are trying to do for a picking technique, I’d suggest spending some time watching good players perform live or on YouTube videos—you will see a wide range of picking styles and hand postures.
Here are some great YouTube videos for your viewing pleasure:
Mark Knopfler - Walk of life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ8gO1aZeP4
(Paul Franklin plays a fantastic extended outro with several extreme close-ups, starting at 4:25.)
Desert Rose Band-Hello Trouble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkeZqtpJMHc
(JD Maness playing his iconic solo on this song; he seems to use both pick-blocking and palm-blocking.)
Doug Jernigan "Eight Days A Week" Steel Solo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvxiz57N6CE
(Doug has evolved an unusual technique; he seems to use pick-blocking plus blocking with his right-hand little finger--he can sure play fast!)
Tom Brumley & The Buckaroos - Tom Cattin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp_gqDc2j8
(The great Tom Brumley, who had a unique right-hand posture of his own.)
I hope this is helpful.
-Dave |
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Paul Stauskas
From:
DFW, TX
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Posted 5 Feb 2017 1:25 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
In my experience working and studying with some truly great players. Also carefully trying to figure out how to make a pedalsteel sound good by asking questions and watching players that got a beautiful rich clear sound it was pretty consistent.
Players pick firmly Getting as much of the fat part of the pick on the string by picking sorta downward through the string . It is like a rest stroke the classical guitar players use.
Clawing at the strings like a banjo player leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to tonal control.
I'm trying to envision using my cuticles to block and it seems truly awkward and counter productive.
I welcome all who disagree to explain themselves. |
Bob demonstrated this technique when I took a lesson from him in Austin. I'm grateful that I was led down the right path from the beginning.
If you compare a classical guitar player's hand shape (one with a near-neutral wrist angle with minimal cant) and pedal steel masters like Franklin, the similarities are apparent.
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 5 Feb 2017 2:05 am Re: Picking upwards?
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| Dave Magram wrote: |
I don’t think that Jeff Newman ever claimed to teach “the only way to pickâ€â€”he just taught the basics of what worked for him to give new players a starting point. |
Sure he did. He told everybody to palm block for a long time in order to not waste time trying different technique. Then he got into pick blocking. I worked personally with him.
| Dave Magram wrote: |
Try this experiment: take off your fingerpicks (leave the thumbpick on), and try playing something on the steel. I suspect you will notice that picking upwards is the natural motion. And I think most players simply shape their fingerpicks to facilitate that motion. (I’ve heard that both Buddy Emmons and Bobbe Seymour would sometimes play without fingerpicks for a different tone.)
If what you are asking about when you say “picking downward†is extending your fingers straight down and picking straight back without curing your fingers upwards, I would think that would be pretty unusual-- because you are not using your finger muscles very effectively that way. If you take a look at close-ups of well-known steel players—and there are many on YouTube—I think you will see all of them picking upwards; I cannot recall ever seeing anybody who picked “downwardâ€. |
You have deeply misunderstood what you are looking at. The motion of the finger is downward and simple. Because it is curled and remains in a consistent position as you move your finger it contacts the string.
| Dave Magram wrote: |
Perhaps you are trying to describe an “arched†hand posture; someone who exclusively pick-blocks, like Paul Franklin or Joe Wright, usually keeps their right-hand arched above the strings (making their fingers more extended) than players like JD Maness or Doug Jernigan who (it looks to me) use a combination of pick-blocking and palm-blocking and so must flatten their right-hand--but their fingers still curl upwards when they pick. |
Joe Wright ( who I took one on one personal lessons with) has an absolutely different hand position than Paul Franklin ( who I have been lucky enough to hang out with on several occasions and he let me pester him with questions). Both get a ton of pick on the string doing what I am trying to describe.
| Dave Magram wrote: |
Whatever you are trying to do for a picking technique, I’d suggest spending some time watching good players perform live or on YouTube videos—you will see a wide range of picking styles and hand postures.
Here are some great YouTube videos for your viewing pleasure:
I hope this is helpful.
-Dave |
This shows me how potentially destructive learning via internet without one on one personal interaction can be. Players that live on the net often come to conclusions that seem absurd to players that constantly interact with other pro players.
Maybe I am just doing a terrible job try to explain what I have been taught by absolutely everybody I ever studied or worked with on this issue.
I am very very interested in what Lloyd Green does. He has his own way. I have not gotten the chance to study with him.
Keep in mind that it is very difficult to know what a player is doing without being there with him and asking. We all see what we want to see until somebody shows us what we are missing.
Another big issue is the thumb. But that is for another thread.
Also I'm sorry about the terrible syntax and grammar. I'm trying do this on my phone while I'm on vacation. My thumbs are not made for this new world of light screen communication....
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Bob |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2017 12:29 am
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Hello Bob,
Thanks for all the corrections. My gosh, I never thought I could be so wrong on so many things all at the same time. 
Because I assumed the OP was new to the instrument, I chose not to delve into the many relatively minor individual variations of picking technique, and instead used the three broad categories that most steel players I know use: palm-blocking, pick-blocking, and “other†(such as Buddy Emmons’ picking technique).
I am very puzzled by your comment: “You have deeply misunderstood what you are looking at. The motion of the finger is downward and simple. Because it is curled and remains in a consistent position as you move your finger it contacts the string.â€
That sounds like you are describing striking the string in a downwards motion with your fingerpick.
Bob, with all due respect, I have been playing pedal steel with various performing bands for many years, and have watched many, many fine steel players up close--and this makes no sense to me.
I suspect the “deep misunderstanding†you and I are having is the lack of precise terminology, so let’s get a bit more precise, shall we?
It seems to me that there are two basic motions involved with “picking†a pedal steel guitar string:
Motion 1: Dipping the tip of the fingerpick slightly below the level of the string to prepare to “strike†it. This “dipping†motion is “downward†towards the fretboard. The fingerpick does not contact or strike the string during this downwards motion.
Motion 2: “Striking†the string with the tip of the fingerpick to sound the note. Normally this is done by curling the finger in an “upward†motion, towards the palm of your hand.
Are we in agreement on these two motions—dipping downward and striking upward?
If not, please identify a YouTube video (from the clips I suggested, or one that you have found) of an accomplished steel player who is striking the strings in a downwards motion--because I cannot imagine how this would be done.
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In any event, I believe the OP meant something else entirely when he used the word “downward†in his statement: “I can get better speed and muting by picking upwards on the string(curling the fingers upward), or just the opposite, by leaning the hand back on the wrist and playing downward on the strings with the fingers more extended.â€.
It was the “leaning the hand back on the wrist†part that I was referring to when I said that that hand posture would be rather unusual and probably not very effective.
Wouldn’t you agree?
-Dave |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2017 8:05 am
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| It is my belief that there is no one "right" way. Emmons picked in a number of ways depending on what tone he wanted to hear as each method- whether it be picking in a downward fashion, pulling sideways, upwards, etc. had, in his words, a different tone. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2017 8:25 am
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"Picking upwards" as you describe is what Jay Dee Maness does (or at least used to do), particularly as seen on close-up videos from the early Hee Haw episodes. I adopted this technique with some success in achieving his staccato feel... But, over time my hand went back to it's more natural position while still able to get the sound I was after.
If it is more comfortable for you, then do it! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 6 Feb 2017 6:08 pm
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Dave, I'm back home by Thursday. We could do a skype session and maybe that would be a better way to show you what I mean.
I want to make this one thing clear. There is no way to really understand what a player is doing by looking at a YouTube. I sat with the players I mentioned along with many others and went over how they pick in great detail. Hand shape and position had many variations. But... there was almost no variation in how and where the pick hit the strings. The string is pushed through in a simple single movement.
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Bob |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2017 1:39 am
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Dave M, thanks for your excellent input, as usual.
Make sure to record that Skype tutorial, so Bob H can show Jay Dee how he' s been playing wrong all these decades.
J |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 7 Feb 2017 5:48 am
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John,
I would be happy to show you what I mean via skype also. I would also be happy to be proven wrong. I've made it my life's work to be open to new things and ways of doing things.
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Bob |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2017 8:27 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| But... there was almost no variation in how and where the pick hit the strings. |
This is an important factor. In the examples of Jay Dee that I have mentioned, it shall be noted that his picks are curved WAAAY around his fingertips. That does make the attack angle straight despite motion of his fingers. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2017 11:43 am
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Jeff, you may be correct about the upward movement of Jay Dee's hand not being reflective of the picks' movement through the string.
However, I've seen Jay Dee's picks up fairly close, and I noticed they seemed straighter than most players, not more curved. That was my impression anyway.
This is why I asked the question. Not making any assertions or giving advice.
What are players' own sense about the direction of the pick through the string? And might that change depending on the type of licks being played?
John
Last edited by John Goux on 7 Feb 2017 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2017 12:35 pm
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Yeah, I had a feeling he may have changed them over the years. The videos I was referencing were from 1969... Here's one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21qANTsBmAw
My only point was that his extreme upward finger motion in that era does not seem to have been a handicap to him at all. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 5:47 am
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| John Goux wrote: |
Dave M, thanks for your excellent input, as usual.
Make sure to record that Skype tutorial, so Bob H can show Jay Dee how he' s been playing wrong all these decades.
J |
First off Dave's input actually is incorrect at least as I am reading it. He has not responded to my desire to have a direct conversation via skype to clarify. He may very well have a better take on the issue but we wil never know without a more direct conversation.
Secondly I am not offering a tutorial. I am offering a chance to go over what I have been taught one on one. I am wondering why you would want to passively watch and judge another video of somebody else doing something rather than you and I having a direct conversation which would give both of us the chance to learn from each other.
Go ahead and get in touch. I would be happy to go over this issue with you.
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Bob |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 11:19 pm
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| John Goux wrote: |
I'd like to hear from players, regarding the angle of their finger picks as they play through a string.
John |
Hi John,
You’ve mentioned the notion of “playing through a string†twice on this thread, and IMHO, I think this is where you may be misunderstanding a very subtle, but crucial concept.
Let me preface this by saying that I played bluegrass banjo for about 10 years before starting pedal steel (funny story how that came about, involving Buddy Cage telling me how pedal steel was “Just like playing the banjo.â€, but that’s a whole other topic).
It is my belief that both instruments are picked exactly the same way—which is not “through the stringâ€, but “gliding off it†to get the best tone and volume.
Here’s a quote from something I posted on a banjo forum a few years ago (that I had completely forgotten about) about your original question about downward movement:
| Quote: |
Here at the Banjo Science (B.S.) Institute, we’ve always visualized the string motion a bit differently from your comments above; we researchers do not believe any downward motion of the string (towards the banjo head) occurs when it is plucked.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe that the plucking motion is a slight upward arc starting against the side of the string. This would suggest that:
1.The initial impact of the fingerpick blade against the string is parallel to the banjo head;
2. As the upward arc continues, the fingerpick material “grabs†the string, lifting it upward at a small angle away from the banjo head, and increasing the tension of the string;
3. When the string tension becomes stronger than the strength of the fingerpick “grabâ€, the string begins sliding down the curved fingerpick blade until it…
4. …reaches the blade tip and glides off the end of the fingerpick, releasing the string to sound the note. All of this takes place in a hundredth of a second or less. The length of string-to-pickblade contact (the “strike-zoneâ€) is probably 1/4" or less.
If this theory is correct, all of the plucking motion is upwards—in the vernacular of banjo science, “It is all plucked up!â€. |
I first heard this description of “gliding off the string†from banjo great Bill Keith (who BTW was also an excellent pedal steel player), and heard others like Earl Scruggs describe the striking motion in a similar way.
I studied a bunch of close-up photos of master banjo-players’ fingerpicks, and was able to trace the actual fingerpicks of a great banjo-player, Kenny Ingram. To achieve this gliding motion when striking the string, most really good banjo players shape their picks to match the angle of their bare fingers, and the “magic angle†of the fingerpick blade turned out to be around 32 degrees (plus or minus a degree or two).
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However with pedal steel, due to the different picking techniques, such as palm-blocking and pick-blocking, there is much more variability in the fingerpick blade angle.
On a 2016 thread: “Finger pick difficultiesâ€, I discussed my measurements of the fingerpick angles of Paul Franklin, Buddy Emmons, and Bobby Black-- which ranged from 26 degrees to 35 degrees.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=298186&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=298186&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
I use both palm-blocking and pick-blocking, so finding just the right blade angle took some experimentation. (FWIW, I found that a blade angle of 28 degrees on the index fingerpick and 33 degrees on the middle fingerpick worked best for me.)
So if you accept the idea that picking the banjo and pedal steel both involve “gliding†the fingerpick blade off the string, I believe that this may help you achieve what you are trying to do.
Besides shaping the fingerpick blade angle, it is also important to shape the fingerpick bands so that the flat part of the fingerpick (not the edge) is hitting the string--which is what I believe most or all of the great steel-players do.
-Dave |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 11:22 pm
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Hi Bob,
| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| Dave, I'm back home by Thursday. We could do a skype session and maybe that would be a better way to show you what I mean. |
Sorry, I hadn’t noticed your Skype invitation until today.
Bob, that’s a very kind offer, but I wasn’t the person asking the question about picking technique—so I don’t understand what the objective would be of such a discussion.
I see you’ve made the same offer of a Skype meeting to the OP, and that’s very generous of you.
-Dave |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 6:33 am
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| Dave Magram wrote: |
It was the “leaning the hand back on the wrist†part that I was referring to when I said that that hand posture would be rather unusual and probably not very effective.
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The wrist needs to be flat and relaxed, same as at any keyboard. The fingers can't be relying on the wrist to do this trick. |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 2:03 pm
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| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| It is my belief that there is no one "right" way. Emmons picked in a number of ways depending on what tone he wanted to hear as each method- whether it be picking in a downward fashion, pulling sideways, upwards, etc. had, in his words, a different tone. |
I agree with you 100% Jim. 
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Rich Gardner
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 2:44 pm
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Just pick the strings. When I took lessons I don't recall any discussion about upward, downward, sideways, etc. Just pick the strings. |
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Paul Stauskas
From:
DFW, TX
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Posted 11 Feb 2017 3:41 pm
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| Rich Gardner wrote: |
Just pick the strings. When I took lessons I don't recall any discussion about upward, downward, sideways, etc. Just pick the strings. |
In this case, ignorance is not bliss, Rich. I think we owe it to ourselves to analyze what our hands are doing more closely. Pick up a classical guitar instructional book and you will find pages on right-hand shape and picking technique.
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My site |
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