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Topic: "working" for free |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2016 8:40 am |
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Hi guys. I've recently had a renewed interest in being more active and goal-oriented in my steel playing. I don't want to play in bands, but I do like the idea of contributing steel arrangements for local semi-amateur singer-songwriters. Making the arrangements is something I can do remotely at home and then just go somewhere to record the finished versions.
I'm more than happy to do this for free and that's what I intend on doing. Steel guitar is a great hobby for me... and I feel it's a better use of my time than most other things. Because I can't live like an artist myself, it's fun to be a part of someone else's creative process who does have that approach to life. That's not the only reason I'm leaning toward doing it for free, however. I only took up PSG a few years and it's my first and only instrument. I'm not a natural-born musician. I probably can't live up to expectations of other musicians who are ambitious or have a work-for-pay mindset. I'm not worried about disappointing them... my skills are passable... but we all know the attitude people take when they're paying their hard-earned money for something. I'm inefficient, I have brain farts, my availability is limited... and after a hard day's work at my job I simply don't have the energy or concentration to give it a solid effort. I feel I only do quality steel compositions on the weekends.
Also, I like the idea of having the freedom to turn someone away in the middle of a project, without guilt or anger, if things aren't clicking.
I remember a couple years ago I posted something on here about working for free and the best advice was to charge at least something, not for the sake of profit, but to force them to value and respect my time. When I made that post, my concern was about undermining other musicians who need the money.
So what I'm thinking now is to just charge for my expenses... such as mileage driving too and from a record studio. Is that enough to strike a balance? |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 31 Dec 2016 9:58 am
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If you use the internet and small multitrack recorder, people could send you their track and you could add yours along side of it, then email the file back. No travel involved.
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 31 Dec 2016 10:12 am
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| Quote: |
| Because I can't live like an artist myself, it's fun to be a part of someone else's creative process who does have that approach to life. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Jan 2017 6:23 pm Re: Look at it from both sides
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
Also, I like the idea of having the freedom to turn someone away in the middle of a project, without guilt or anger, if things aren't clicking.
I remember a couple years ago I posted something on here about working for free and the best advice was to charge at least something, not for the sake of profit, but to force them to value and respect my time. |
Sorry, but those two statements don't go together. Whether or not you're getting paid, and whether or not you're happy, you should always be willing to finish what you start. Not doing that means you've wasted someone else's time. And put simply, people will never respect or value your time if you don't respect and value theirs. |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2017 6:30 pm
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Whatever floats your boat. Myself? I put in too many years & too much money learning to play this cheese slicer & chasing tone, not to mention my years on the Tele & 5-string to do it for free. They want me to play, they're gonna hafta pony up the kablingy.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2017 6:32 pm Re: Look at it from both sides
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
Also, I like the idea of having the freedom to turn someone away in the middle of a project, without guilt or anger, if things aren't clicking.
I remember a couple years ago I posted something on here about working for free and the best advice was to charge at least something, not for the sake of profit, but to force them to value and respect my time. |
Sorry, but those two statements don't go together. Whether or not you're getting paid, and whether or not you're happy, you should always be willing to finish what you start. Not doing that means you've wasted someone else's time. And put simply, people will never respect or value your time if you don't respect and value theirs. |
That's not what I mean, of course. It's a nice way to say if I'm getting jerked around or having my own time wasted by a jackass. If that's how they are, I'm sure they're used to it. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 6:18 am
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I would and have worked for free for friends that would do the same for me.
Other than that, if you want to have a parade in our town, you must pay.
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 6:36 am
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I think for one to expect a level of commitment to the music, whether that is in time or availability, but more importantly to go all in musically, the artist should be prepared to offer what they can afford or have the conversation with you about what you need. It's for the benefit of the project..
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Jim Smerk
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 6:59 am
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Free or not, jerk or not, as soon as you leave a person in the middle of a project, you can count on not getting offered gigs after a few months.....musicians word of mouth is a powerful thing....at least in the states I played in.
As for just charging for expenses, that is a totally fair way to go IMHO, judging from your comments about your playing abilities. I have done the same at times for projects that I felt were worth it.
Good Luck with it, and remember to HAVE FUN! |
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Rich Gardner
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 2:19 pm
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| I played semi professionally for 34 years. I now donate my time playing for nursing homes and hospitals. It's my way of giving back. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 2:39 pm
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| I have and will play for free as long as it's for a good cause. But, I won't be taken advantage of! If it comes up once or twice a year, no big deal, but, I have my limits when it comes to exploitation. |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 3:53 pm
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| If you're playing for someone who is getting paid then you should be too. I retired from a paying job and jam a lot and play nursing homes etc for fun thats my pay. Bottom line if you're happy doing what you're doing go for it. |
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Jim Smerk
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2017 7:41 pm
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"If you're playing for someone who is getting paid then you should be too."
^^^This^^^ |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2017 6:43 am
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I think I need to get paid, just out of respect for my efforts and expenses. As others stated, If someone is profiting somehow,Id have a hard time playing for free.
I have played the occasional benefit,rarely, but if its for a good cause, Im cool with it.
Im at a point in life where its not just about the money, Musicians wages have stayed low, everything else has gone up. If the gig isnt musical enough, meaning not a pleasant musical experience, the small pay isnt enough to endure the gig.
If I go to all the trouble of hauling my gear, Ive got to enjoy it. I consider that part of the payment.If the experience is a drag, I feel like Ive wasted my time, even with a few bucks in my pocket. No fun feels like Im underpaid.
OTOH, if the music feels right , Im not as focused on the dough. |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 8 Jan 2017 9:01 am
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I don't WORK for free.
But, ultimately it's the individuals decision to do as he or she wishes. And everyone has a right to "charge" what they think is appropriate for their level of expertise.
If it's a job that I'm asked to do with the expectation that someone or something is profiting from then I expect to get paid.
How I get paid is up to me to accept or negotiate. I've negotiated for lot's of things other than money.
That being said. I've been asked to participate in charity or fund raiser events for a cause I support. If there is no offer of compensation then it's my decision to accept or reject the offer. I decide if I want to "donate" my time in lieu of money.
An example of the former is;
I was asked to contribute to a singer songwriters 3rd CD. I may have spent 5-10 hours of time working the material. Another 3-4 in studio time and travel. I was paid for that time with a very small amount of money and other goods.
But I was paid in a big way by being invited to participate in other "paying" events through musicians this person introduced me to. The introductions were part of our agreement. I got paid a lot more than money.
An example of the latter is;
We had a former bass player who died of a heart attack several years ago. The band has been asked to play this spring at his surviving sons wedding. We were offered money but all the band members unanimously turned it down and we all agreed to play for free. That I'll consider as my wedding present to the couple. And a way to pay something back to the former band members legacy.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2017 5:39 pm
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Ive seen this happen to a band,less likely it could happen to a sideman.
You can get a rep as someone to call when somebody wants free music.
People who organize functions may network. You may get another invitation to play for free.
Playing for a good cause is a great gift to give if your able. The times Ive done it, I was happy to do so.
It can be annoying when someone wants something for nothing, with no real charitable intent. |
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Michael Hibner
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2017 4:30 am
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| I don't play steel guitar but I love steel guitar and I greatly respect and admire anyone that can play steel. I do however play guitar bass guitar some dobro and the drums. I also sing. I've spent countless hours honing and perfecting my craft on these instruments. For years I gigged every weekend and make good money doing it. I agree if there's a payday rolling down the pike any and all players should expect a cut out of it. I don't gig anymore now, I mainly just do recording at home. I have spent a lot of hours perfecting my recording chops too. It's easy to find musicians on almost any instrument willing to collaborate on the internet and record for the fun of it... except steel guitar players. Most I have talked to want to be paid $100 a song...even if its a track on a country cover tune, they can remote record from home, that will never see a spot on an album or gross dollar one. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 21 Jan 2017 7:11 am
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Just as an aside about benefits... of which I've played many, some paid, others with the promoter's expectation that the band plays "gratis."
How many times have you found out that the room/bar/club is getting paid for its space, the bartenders are getting paid, the waitresses are getting paid, the bar receipts are kept by the club, and in fact, the ONLY people NOT getting paid are the musicians?
Without whom there wouldn't be anyone showing up for the benefit in the first place.
If I have a personal involvement with the event, like I know the recipient or organization, no problem. I want to contribute my skill and also $$. But if the event is something to which I'm not connected and money is changing hands to those servicing the event, I'd expect my hands to be among those being graced with pay. I value my time, my equipment, my skill, and my effort.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Randy Beavers
From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
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Posted 21 Jan 2017 7:24 am
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I'm reminded of a Mark Twain saying...
"The guest preacher charged nothin' for deliverin' the sermon, and it was worth it too!" |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2017 7:27 am
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Right on Herb.
One other consideration..I almost always get paid or don't go unless it's going to be a lot of fun. (Some steel shows, my church, jam, etc.) When asked to do something "free" I always want to understand who else has been called or turned down, quit, etc. I try to never do anything where I am effectively taking money out of the mouth of a full time working musician. I do not rely on the income I get from music. Others do and I don't want to interfere with that.
_________________
Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
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Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
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Posted 21 Jan 2017 7:42 am
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| Bars that make thousands off drinks and expect you to play for free or tips need there doors nailed shut. Just ask a dentist to fill a cavity for free or a doctor to examine you. It took you much longer to learn the steel than it did for most doctors to get a degree. On the other hand if They hire you to play for a fee, you need to show up and be there and be professional no matter what. The show must go on as Jimmie Dickens would always say. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 21 Jan 2017 9:20 am
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Of course there are exceptions, but usually...
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Roy Carroll
From:
North of a Round Rock
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Posted 23 Jan 2017 9:45 am
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I'm completely with Herb on this one. I'm not saying that I haven't donated my time and energy from time to time if it is a good cause. However, what usually ends up happening when the club asks you to play for free, everyone is paid except the people that make the event a success.
I was thinking about this exact subject yesterday, we actually made more money as musicians in the 70's than we do now.
Why is that? We haul (steel players) $4-5k in instruments and amps (sometimes more than that) It takes at least 20 years to get to the point where you can carry your load in a good band, and the club owners have the balls to ask the band to fund his endeavor or play for free so he can sell tickets and beer. When the crowd is built up, he HIRES someone else because he says he needs diversity. The original band does not reep the benefits of any of the lean times. What that club owner is actually saying is "help me build my business and I will cut you out at the end". Every professional musician has seen this happen.
Thanks goodness, I am fortunate to make good money and play a lot, but you should see the amount of guys in Austin that will play for beer!
Remember, this is the Business of Music, not the Music Business. There is a difference!
_________________
Just north of the Weird place, south of Georgetown |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2017 9:02 am
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A lot of excellent points being made in this thread. It's been discussed on others but it's good to keep talking about it.
I've thought about the one point where I've got so much invested $$-wise in equipment or woodshed-time that playing for free should be a rare occurrence. I get that. Then I wondered, on the other hand, if it also means another player should more readily play for free if they got got their setup inexpensively and only know the basics?
As much as I go back and forth about it, I keep reminding myself that getting paid for playing is hugely influenced by the local live-music market and its club/venue owners. In an area where any playing opportunities are scarce, sure, you can decide to not play for free. No public appearances for you. If you're happy with that, great! Seriously. If you're not happy with that then decide what you can and cannot control.
There will ALWAYS be some band or player who will be willing to undercut you and play for nothing or beer or whatever. ALWAYS. That'll never change. So, either throw in the towel, keep whining, or pay attention to the things you can control. Like being reliable, on-time, appropriately dressed, having your parts down cold and knowing when to shutup on the bandstand. You don't have to have some shining, bubbly personality but, geez, get rid of any whining and being an opinionated jerk. Just prior to any rehearsals or going on-stage keep repeating this phrase: "It's not about me." Then live by that.
Last, yeah, I DO agree that club and venue owners are oftentimes of a special breed. It could be worse. There are some areas where you PAY to play. |
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