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Topic: How are lacquered guitars colored? |
Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 8:44 am |
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I've been curious about this for a while.
Using the Sho bud Lloyd green model for example:
Did they dye the wood green and then spray clear lacquer, or was the lacquer tinted and sprayed over a natural body? Thanks
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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 8:59 am
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| Apparently the old Sho~Buds were colored with food dye, or at least that's what I've heard. I don't know what the actual process was but I'd guess the wood was stained with the dye and then had clear lacquer applied. But there are an awful lot of faded, discolored Sho~Buds around. The food dye doesn't handle exposure to sunlight well. These days they probably use a more stable colorant. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 9:28 am Coloring lacquer finishes
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In the luthiery world in general, the short answer is "either or both".
For the LDG example, clear lacquer over dyed wood is I believe the correct answer.
Modern dyes, which may be water or solvent based,can be far more stable and fade free than the stuff available in the era that produced so many of our most prized vintage instruments.
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 11:28 am
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| Bill Miller wrote: |
| Apparently the old Sho~Buds were colored with food dye, or at least that's what I've heard. I don't know what the actual process was but I'd guess the wood was stained with the dye and then had clear lacquer applied. But there are an awful lot of faded, discolored Sho~Buds around. The food dye doesn't handle exposure to sunlight well. These days they probably use a more stable colorant. |
MSA also used food coloring, and had the same ptoblem. I always used my mica guitar in outdoor gigs.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 1:12 pm
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That's incredible that they used food dyes.
I thought about tinting epoxy resin with die from food stores but didn't know how that would turn out.
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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Clark Doughty
From:
KANSAS
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 1:30 pm colored lacquered
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| I had a Mullen G2 only a couple years ago. I had it in my living room where it was exposed thru my living room windows and it severally faded what was once a beautiful red lacquered finish. I had no idea that a Mullen guitar would fade just sitting in my living room with the it getting sun only a few hours a day but it did. Mullen would not do anything about it unless I wanted to pay to get it refinished. So beware with any Mullens and probably others sitting where they get sunlight. |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 4:08 pm Re: colored lacquered
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| Clark Doughty wrote: |
| I had a Mullen G2 only a couple years ago. I had it in my living room where it was exposed thru my living room windows and it severally faded what was once a beautiful red lacquered finish. I had no idea that a Mullen guitar would fade just sitting in my living room with the it getting sun only a few hours a day but it did. Mullen would not do anything about it unless I wanted to pay to get it refinished. So beware with any Mullen and probably others sitting where they get sunlight. |
Wow Clark! Thats a Bummer for sure. Its good you brought that to everybody's attention. I wouldn't have thought much about that but Im sure there are others out there that will value your word of caution.
Thanks
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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 6:00 pm
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We've also seen pictures of Emmons guitars that have faded.
Those of us with lacquer guitars should keep them covered at all rimes when they are not being played.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 7:00 pm
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| On the bright side. ... Might be able to get a nice sunburst pattern if you expose it just right. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 7:01 pm
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| I don't know how other manufacturers do it, but the couple Sho-buds I have refinished were definitely a tinted lacquer. I've done regular guitars and furniture finishing this way too. Furniture finishers call it glazing -- you apply a seal coat first then mask off the inlay strips and apply the colored coats, then pull the masking and apply clear coats over the whole thing. It's next to impossible to keep penetrating stains/dyes from bleeding under masking into adjacent (porous) wood surfaces such an inlay if they aren't sealed first. Maple in particular is really hard and tight-grained and tends to look really blotchy anyway if you apply a stain directly to the bare wood. Glazing provides a more consistent look to the color. Sunburst and candy apple finishes are obviously done this way too (or Tom's way might work also!) |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 8:46 pm
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Back in the day, most were colored with food coloring. It was a water based dye, and very cheap. These water-based colorings also allowed you to redo or re-wipe the stain to get the proper blend and color before the lacquer was applied. If you mix the stain in the lacquer, you're pretty much stuck with the color of the first coat. Also, any chips will really stand out, as they'll reveal the lighter (unstained) wood underneath.
The problem with the food colorings was that they were made for cakes an cookies, and weren't stabilized to last any length of time, so they faded and quickly changed color with exposure to UV. Many players bought green guitars, and later found out they were originally blue when they took them apart. Blue faded to green, red faded to orange, green faded to a tan/tobacco color, brown faded to yellow, and so on. |
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Dave Grothusen
From:
Scott City, Ks
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Posted 17 Dec 2016 5:24 am
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| Clark, you can't blame Mullen. The sun is a powerful oxidizer and most anything organic will change somewhat from exposure to it. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 17 Dec 2016 7:00 am
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I used leather dye from a shoe repair shop, get the smallest size available, it only takes a little to go a long way.Then clear lacquer, 0000 steel wool between coats, I broke through on one edge, just reapplied dye to that spot, continued spraying, the blend was not detectable.The spot @ the 15th fret is a light reflection.The picture was taken 2001, still just as red as ever. FWIW..It was never exposed to direct sunlight for any length of time.
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Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 17 Dec 2016 9:06 am
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| I've seen various color-fast paints available that claim to be impervious to UV light. Surely there must similar wood stains out there in this high tech age. Lacquer guitars are very expensive and there should be a way to make them immune to fading or discoloring. Or what about UV blocking lacquer itself? You can get UV blocking everything else it seems. It's a sad thing to see a once glorious blue lacquer guitar all turned yellow. ...or whatever. |
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John Palumbo
From:
Lansdale, PA.
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Posted 17 Dec 2016 11:28 am Lacqured Guitars
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I have a Williams guitar that has always been kept in a living room environment, never taken out of my home and not in any direct sunlight, that the lacquer is peeling away in spots. Perhaps I should of had it covered. This is so disappointing. It's only at this location now for me to be able to take a good picture.The guitar is about 10 years old and this started happening about a year ago.
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Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
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Posted 17 Dec 2016 11:49 am aniline wood dye
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Here's a ShoBud I refinished last year. I used water-soluble aniline dye. It's suppose to be "fade resistant". We shall see.  I masked the natural area edge with shellac and masking tape, before applying the dye. I was able to get a very clean line.
I used polyurethane  as a top coat.
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"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
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Scott Denniston
From:
Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2016 6:45 am
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I can't remember who told me this but it was during the time that A.J. Nelson was refinishing my Professional. Someone said that Sho-Bud use to add iodine as a tint. It might have been Mr. Nelson that told me that as he was an original finisher at Sho-Bud.
Eric that's one beautiful job you did there! |
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Eric Dahlhoff
From:
Point Arena, California
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Posted 18 Dec 2016 11:46 pm
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Thanks Scott 
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"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan) |
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Kevin Mincke
From:
Farmington, MN (Twin Cities-South Metro) USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2016 9:20 am
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This 1976 Pro III was ordered blue and over years has faded to a greenish blue.
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 19 Dec 2016 4:59 pm
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I bought a MSA U-12 in 1976 that has been played inside and outside for 40years. The original brown stain and finish still looks like new. Maybe Reece used a different brown stain?
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 19 Dec 2016 5:04 pm
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I refinished a couple of Sho-Buds a few years ago. This thread, with a 12-string, shows the typical Sho-Bud blue faded to pond-scum green. Further down the thread is info about modern dye options.
My D-10 is in this thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=261538
Unfortunately, due to issues getting all the parts I needed from Mr. Morehead, I was unable to finish them when in the Philippines, and am way to busy at the moment to do so - a "retirement" project?
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2016 8:34 pm
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"That's incredible that they used food dyes".
Here's an old girl you may be familiar with.
Created in 1503, this portrait was created without the use of any artificial dies or chemical coloring. That means all the colors where created "by hand" from plants, lichens, dirt, sea shells, animal parts, etc, as they have been by artists for thousands of years.
Yes, we don't exactly know who this woman was, and she is almost as pretty as some of the bud's posted, but, for over 500 years old, her color looks pretty good don't you think!
Of course, she stays out of the sun these days.
"I thought about tinting epoxy resin with die from food stores but didn't know how that would turn out."
Try it on a piece of scrap wood, it might look really cool.
Jeff, The pics you posted of your lap steel were awesome!  I wouldn't have the patience. My hats off to you!
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Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 9:14 am
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| Bud Angelotti wrote: |
Here's an old girl you may be familiar with.
Created in 1503, this portrait was created without the use of any artificial dies or chemical coloring. That means all the colors where created "by hand" from plants, lichens, dirt, sea shells, animal parts, etc, as they have been by artists for thousands of years.
Yes, we don't exactly know who this woman was, and she is almost as pretty as some of the bud's posted, but, for over 500 years old, her color looks pretty good don't you think!
Of course, she stays out of the sun these days.
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Most of the paint pigments used long ago, as well as some of those still used today, were mineral-based. Therefore, they didn't fade very much. Rocks today look pretty much as they did when they were formed. (I had a couple of classes in art and art appreciation in college.)
As to the lady in the picture, I could be wrong, but she looks a little jaundiced, to me.  |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 12:56 pm
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I'm guessing she was a heavy boozer and died of liver failure.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 21 Dec 2016 10:50 pm
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| Did they dye the wood green and then spray clear lacquer, or was the lacquer tinted and sprayed over a natural body? Thanks |
FWIW I used to do quite a bit of finish work (I had a full spray booth with exhaust system/filters in my garage). Color can be done in several ways, but the most common are to use wood-specific dyes (Mohawk makes a ton of colors; many applicators create their own using universal colorants), but only with a tinted paste-type grain filler and (usually lacquer) sanding sealer to control penetration. Clears and sometimes slight amber toners for aging effects are applied in 10-12 coats (3 "passes" with a gun is a coat - a very small amount of coating. 12 coats is actually VERY thin, hence the paste wood filler to create a smooth surface)
Another method, often used in combination with the first, is to use self, commercially or factory-tinted lacquer toners in various colors to create a sense of depth. This is the method used by most 6-string companies that still used lacquer (or used to). At times they would/will dye the wood, but that's usually limits to small-output boutique or custom shop instruments, as it's not practical on a production line.
For example, a Fender 3-color sunburst consisted (originally) of a dipped or sprayed sealer, a yellow toner, then a red toner over part of the yellow, then a very dark brown(not black as many think) over part of the red/yellow...then clear coats to build film thickness, gloss and have enough film build for polishing operations.
hope that is useful...
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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