| Author |
Topic: Fender Deluxe Reverb (Reissue) Frustration |
Landon Evans
From:
The Republic of Texas
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 3:03 pm |
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So I'm trying to play pedal steel through a DRRI...
I bought my first pedal steel the day after Thanksgiving, and I'm trying to play through a tube amp. I know that's not what I'm supposed to do, but I figured I could make it work. I mean, guys used to play through tube amps. This is considered a very clean amp. I don't need loud volume (I'm just playing in my living room, and if I ever play live I'll mic it). And I'm no tone expert, so I figured I could get it to a place where it wouldn't bother me.
WELL IT'S BOTHERING ME. I feel like it's hindering my learning and my desire to play. I can't keep the thing clean! And I really don't understand how. I feel like I must be doing something wrong. First, I bought the Travis Toy Eminence Double T-12, which I was sure would give clean headroom. Better, but not a whole lot. So then I biased the amp WAY down. By way down, I mean all the way. (Granted, I think these new DRRIs have a threshold where you can't bias it really extreme). All this, and I still get some breakup with the volume knob on 3!
I was really hoping I could make this work, because I have two pretty nice guitar amps (this and a Dr. Z Maz 18 ) that I need to make use of. Plus, I just dropped a ton of money on an instrument that I won't be making any money off of for a good while, and I really can't afford to buy another amp just for pedal steel. I figured it'd be cool/unique/vintage to play with a tube amp. So far it's just really frustrating.
Any advice?
...Anyone want to trade a PSG amp for a Dr. Z or Deluxe Reverb??
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George McLellan
From:
Duluth, MN USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 3:32 pm
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I have the exact same amp & color. I use a DD2 into the
normal channel. Mine is clean and stock from Sweetwater.
Geo |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 3:42 pm
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It is not because it is a tube amp. Tube amps are still considered preferable by many steel players, and many famous recordings have been made using them. (And still are)
And yes solid state will probably be cleaner.
Here are some questions and opinions.
Does your Maz do the same thing?
Your distortion is coming from one of these 3 places, or a combinations of:
Preamp, power stage, speaker.
You may have already ruled out the power stage by biasing the amp very cold.
I can't vouch for the TT speaker. Try an EV or JBL. Or multiple speakers.
The preamp in Fender amps can start to break at about 3. Are you using a volume pedal yet? If you are hitting the preamp with the guitar maxed, depending on the pickup, you can be breaking up at the preamp stage on 3.
Try these 2 things....use the 2nd input to reduce the gain at the first stage. (You will need to adjust your tone controls)
Try your amp volume on 2 1/2 with the first input. Does it breakup with your volume pedal at about 3/4?
Although I prefer tube amps, I am not a fan of the DRRI. Many players will chime in that they love them. I find them to be the least desirable of the lot for pedal steel. Low headroom, thin sounding(to me), and not a good type of breakup.
To improve, use a loud high efficiency speaker, reduce your input level to preamp, and make sure the amp is electronically sound and adjusted to be at its best.
Cheers, John |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 4:03 pm
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don't that series of DRRI have a small alnico magnet speaker in them?
I used that exact amp on a gig once where I flew in. It was far from ideal at any volume
The speaker is intended to eat a lot of the clean power. Might start by trying a different one if I am correct
_________________
Pedalsteelamp.com
Milkmansound.com
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 6:08 pm
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Landon wrote:
| Quote: |
| First, I bought the Travis Toy Eminence Double T-12, which I was sure would give clean headroom. Better, but not a whole lot. |
So the stock DRRI speaker is apparently not the issue.
| Quote: |
| Are you using a volume pedal? |
Important question. Hitting the front end of a Deluxe with the full signal from a hot pedal steel pickup without doing something else to chill out the signal can push it into overdrive. For a Deluxe I'm using for pedal steel, I often use either a 5751 or 12AY7 in the first gain stage (that's V1 for the Normal channel, V2 for the Vibrato channel) to chill the signal out a bit going into the intermediate stages and phase inverter. Or if you're using a buffer (I love Brad Sarno's Freeloader with a variable input impedance control), you can just use the second input to lower the gain. I say use a buffer because the 2nd input impedance is significantly lower than the first input (which has the normal Fender input impedance of 1 MegOhm).
| Quote: |
| So then I biased the amp WAY down. By way down, I mean all the way. (Granted, I think these new DRRIs have a threshold where you can't bias it really extreme). All this, and I still get some breakup with the volume knob on 3! |
It is possible to bias the amp too "low" - by "low", I assume you mean low idling plate current. If you choke off the tube by raising the grid bias voltage too high, you will get a very nasty crossover distortion caused by cutting off positive/negative polarities of the signal prematurely. As long as you don't push the idling plate current beyond something like 65-70% of the tube's capacity, which would likely cause it to red-plate in operation and certainly is too much for a class AB amp like a DR, I tend to bias to taste. A bit cool is fine for pedal steel, but I wouldn't cool it down too much. I would never bias below 50% of capacity, but I usually bias hotter than that, even for pedal steel.
I personally won't have a DRRI. I have had at least a dozen old Deluxe Reverbs over the last 40 years. My absolute desert island amp - oh, maybe a Vibrolux if I just had a Tele. If you don't get completely hosed on trading for a nice old silverface Deluxe Reverb, I'd just get an old one in good shape. No Deluxe will keep up for pedal steel on a bandstand with a heavy-hitting drummer. But for practice or a lower-volume rehearsal/gig/studio-session, a properly set up Deluxe Reverb should sound just fine. OK, not as clean as a Session/Nashville 400, but if you're just at bedroom levels, there should be NO issue if it's set up correctly with that Travis Toy speaker.
BTW - I've been pondering putting a TT speaker into one of my silverface Deluxes. Does it fit OK without cutting things up? I suppose it must since you're using one.  |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 7:16 pm
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Have you plugged into the second input on the channel?
Also, I agree that biasing too cold can be an issue.
What is the plate voltage on the power tubes? I would think that 22-25ma across the OT would be cool, not cold on the amp. Just a guess without the voltage.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 4:24 am Drri
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I use a stock Deluxe Reverb RI and love it. Jenson original speaker too. The reveb will feed back if I turn it up past 5, but other than that it's a great amp. I don't use it in a loud band though and keep the volume around 5.
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 5:02 am
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I have used the 1965 Deluxe Reverb reissue at home for practice at very loud volumes with no audible distortion.
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Deluxe%20Reverb/Deluxe%20Reverb.html
I've since sold that and gotten the 1968 Deluxe Reissue because I like the Normal channel EQ setup. It has basically the same tone as the 1965 model. Neither amp has a decent reverb tank or reverb compared to the original Deluxe amps so I use outboard reverb. Also neither amp has enough hours on it for the speaker to be broken in and mellowed out like it would be in a 50 year old amp!
I have been using a Goodrich foot volume with a Dunlop HotPotz which rarely goes past half way actuation. So I crank the amp volume control and limit my input signal at the volume pedal allowing me a lot of playing dynamics and putting the pedal taper where it suits my style the best.
I'd say these amps are fine for practice with the stock speaker although there are far better speakers available for pedal steel and it sounds like the TT one is pretty awesome. You could sell the Deluxe and buy a very powerful used Steel King or Nashville 400 and have some cash left over! |
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David Spires
From:
Millersport, OH
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 6:22 am
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Unless there is an actual defect in this particular amp, what I've done is use Input 2 (6dB pad), and I also use a Boss GE-7 EQ after the volume pedal and before the amp, and just turn the volume of it down 1/2 a notch.
If you are experiencing what I have, it's the hot pedal steel pickup and hot active volume pedal causing you to hit the front end of the amp too hard, causing the type of overdrive most guitar players want, but most pedal steel players don't want...
My $0.02. (I have a reissue head, and this is how I use it, with satisfaction.),
David Spires
_________________
2021 MSA Legend XL 10&7; Asher Electro-Hawaiian Junior Lap Steel; '79 OMI Dobro 66 w/ Scheerhorn cone and setup; '64 Hand-wired Re-issue Fender Princeton Reverb |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 6:57 am
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Are you using a powered volume pedal? That would be my first thought. They're often are set way too high, and they boost the steel pickups output (which is hot anyway). Distortion is also often caused by bad coupling caps between the preamp stages, that would be my second guess. They're cheap, so just replace them all - unless you have an o'scope, which allows you to see exactly where the distortion is originating. Also, in my experience, speakers (just about any speakers) rarely contribute to distortion in a low-volume setting, unless they are defective.
One other tip is to turn the amp volume up...way up, and learn to use the volume pedal to control your volume. That may sound counter-intuitive, but doing this reduces the amount of signal you're putting into the amps first stage (because you'll be forced to be play with less pedal).
I've used any and all kinds of Fender amps, and even on my Twin Reverb and Super Twin Reverb, I always played with the volumes all the way up...even when practicing in the house. |
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Landon Evans
From:
The Republic of Texas
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:25 am
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| George McLellan wrote: |
I have the exact same amp & color. I use a DD2 into the
normal channel. Mine is clean and stock from Sweetwater.
Geo |
Wow, that surprises me! Especially since the speaker in this one is supposed to break up quicker than a typical DRRI. (Got mine from Sweetwater too, buy all my gear there!) |
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Landon Evans
From:
The Republic of Texas
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:30 am
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| John Goux wrote: |
It is not because it is a tube amp. Tube amps are still considered preferable by many steel players, and many famous recordings have been made using them. (And still are)
And yes solid state will probably be cleaner.
Here are some questions and opinions.
Does your Maz do the same thing?
Your distortion is coming from one of these 3 places, or a combinations of:
Preamp, power stage, speaker.
You may have already ruled out the power stage by biasing the amp very cold.
I can't vouch for the TT speaker. Try an EV or JBL. Or multiple speakers.
The preamp in Fender amps can start to break at about 3. Are you using a volume pedal yet? If you are hitting the preamp with the guitar maxed, depending on the pickup, you can be breaking up at the preamp stage on 3.
Try these 2 things....use the 2nd input to reduce the gain at the first stage. (You will need to adjust your tone controls)
Try your amp volume on 2 1/2 with the first input. Does it breakup with your volume pedal at about 3/4?
Although I prefer tube amps, I am not a fan of the DRRI. Many players will chime in that they love them. I find them to be the least desirable of the lot for pedal steel. Low headroom, thin sounding(to me), and not a good type of breakup.
To improve, use a loud high efficiency speaker, reduce your input level to preamp, and make sure the amp is electronically sound and adjusted to be at its best.
Cheers, John |
I haven't tried playing into the Maz yet, guess I should do that. As far as the volume pedal/pickup thing, I've wondered about that. I was told the guitar I bought had a nice, hot aftermarket pickup in it. As far as the pedal. I have a JHS modded Ernie Ball volume pedal. The mod makes it a buffer that you have to power with a 9V - I got this for guitar so that I could use the tuner out without having tone loss. And I do hit it all the way up quite a bit, that's where I'm getting the breakup.
I have played around with input 1 vs 2. Guess I'll just have to experiment with some of the other suggestions. |
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Landon Evans
From:
The Republic of Texas
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:38 am
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| Tim Marcus wrote: |
don't that series of DRRI have a small alnico magnet speaker in them?
I used that exact amp on a gig once where I flew in. It was far from ideal at any volume
The speaker is intended to eat a lot of the clean power. Might start by trying a different one if I am correct |
Tim, you are correct about that model having the different speaker. I knew I would be swapping out speakers when I bought a DRRI (though at the time I thought it would be for six string...), so I just bought this one because I like the color. I put a Travis Toy Eminence speaker in it.
I've heard great things about your amps. Maybe some day if I ever get to making money with PSG, I'll look at upgrading to some of your handiwork. |
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Landon Evans
From:
The Republic of Texas
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:53 am
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| Rick Abbott wrote: |
Have you plugged into the second input on the channel?
Also, I agree that biasing too cold can be an issue.
What is the plate voltage on the power tubes? I would think that 22-25ma across the OT would be cool, not cold on the amp. Just a guess without the voltage. |
I have plugged into the second input. Still gets pretty hot.
I don't think it's biased too cold, but I don't really know. I went and bought a multimeter to try and test it, but I couldn't figure out where I was supposed to test. I guess I would have to open up the chassis or something, which I wasn't really thrilled about doing (I'm not good with that kind of thing). So instead I just turned the bias pot. Didn't seem to make a huge difference either way I turned it, and I think I read somewhere that the new DRRIs are set to where you can't turn them way up or way down. So I just set it almost as cold as I could turn it. Maybe that was a mistake, I don't know. |
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Landon Evans
From:
The Republic of Texas
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:56 am
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
I have used the 1965 Deluxe Reverb reissue at home for practice at very loud volumes with no audible distortion.
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Deluxe%20Reverb/Deluxe%20Reverb.html
I've since sold that and gotten the 1968 Deluxe Reissue because I like the Normal channel EQ setup. It has basically the same tone as the 1965 model. Neither amp has a decent reverb tank or reverb compared to the original Deluxe amps so I use outboard reverb. Also neither amp has enough hours on it for the speaker to be broken in and mellowed out like it would be in a 50 year old amp!
I have been using a Goodrich foot volume with a Dunlop HotPotz which rarely goes past half way actuation. So I crank the amp volume control and limit my input signal at the volume pedal allowing me a lot of playing dynamics and putting the pedal taper where it suits my style the best.
I'd say these amps are fine for practice with the stock speaker although there are far better speakers available for pedal steel and it sounds like the TT one is pretty awesome. You could sell the Deluxe and buy a very powerful used Steel King or Nashville 400 and have some cash left over! |
Thanks for the advice, and I checked out that recording - awesome! Great tone and great playing.
My volume pedal (or the way I use it) might be my problem. I have a JHS modded Ernie Ball VP JR. I do hit it all the way up quite a bit. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 11:15 am
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| Landon Evans wrote: |
My volume pedal (or the way I use it) might be my problem. I have a JHS modded Ernie Ball VP JR. I do hit it all the way up quite a bit. |
1: if it has a 250K pot, that's stealing tone.
2: turn the amp up to 5 and the volume pedal down.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 16 Dec 2016 8:47 pm
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I would take it to an amp tech and have him wire up a series resistor in the second input sized to solve your problem. 25 cents of parts and minimum bench fee.
A potentiometer in one of the input jack holes would be even more versatile.
I could theoretically do it myself but I fear the heart killing voltages inside a tube amp. |
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