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Topic: Getting tone out of a mid 60s Twin. Do I need effects. |
Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 6:14 pm |
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I was struggling with my tone. My rig is a 76 MSA Classic D10 into a Goodrich L120 into a 65 Twin Reverb. The best I could seem to dial in was these settings and the sound was still had too much midrange. The original speakers were shot so a while back I installed a 1 Eminence Red White and Blues and 1 Eminence Screamin Eagle which worked OK for guitar but it has too much midrange for steel.
I didn't know what to do I was afraid I needed a different speaker. I hooked up a Boss EQ and now it sounds pretty sweet.
To try to cover common Country sounds going forward are there are effects I should eventually get. So far I finding all my modulation comes from the tone bar. So far the spring reverb is working. What effects are common?
Thanks. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 6:22 pm
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Look up the Duncan Tone Stack calculator (if you're running Windows) and play around with it.
Also, try this idea and ask your bandmates how it sounds:
Bass-as high as it'll go without getting "woofy"
Mids-almost as high as the bass, but a bit lower
Treble-not as high as the mids.
Yes, you'll have more mids than you're used to with a Peavey, BUT FENDER MIDS ARE KINDA PLEASANT.
This is how I run both my Twins and my Milkman.
Here's my mid-70s Twin working hard https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VOnjXoHvOng
And my 65 Reissue taking it easy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bWtRNJb973g
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 6:46 pm
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If you're talking about a real 1965, non-reissue, blackface Twin Reverb, as opposed to a reissue amp, I don't think a good-sounding steel "needs" effects to sound good if everything else is right. I have a '66 Twin Reverb with the original Jensen C12N speakers in it, it sounds fantastic with any steel I own - Zum D10 with 17.5 KOhm wound TrueTones, Zum U12 with Lawrence 912, Franklin D10 with original single-coil Franklin pickups, or a Fender 800 with the original pickups. Just straight into an old Sho Bud volume pedal and straight into the amp, they all sound different but good. Not remotely "midrangey" - a very present sound. I typically set my tone a bit different than what you're showing in the pic - more treble, more midrange, and maybe a bit less bass, but not much. The tone controls on a Twin Reverb are interactive, I'd try moving them around and see what happens.
There are a lot of variables. I had an old MSA Classic D10 from 1974 with Supersustain pickups. I found them a bit midrangey myself, at least for typical E9 use. The speakers you installed could be an issue, but I have generally found most "American-style" Eminence speakers to be OK in a Twin, to my tastes. But I have not tried those specific models. I generally find the more "British-style" speakers to indeed be a bit midrangey.
Preamp and/or power tubes can also be an issue. Mine has a nice set of NOS Phillips/Sylvania 6L6 power tubes and a nice assortment of old Telefunken, Mullard, and RCA preamp tubes. There can be other issues in an old amp that might be an issue such as out-of-spec components.
To me, if a guitar/steel doesn't sound pretty good just plugged straight in, no amount of effects will make it sound great. Of course, some tone shaping can be useful, but to me, if it doesn't sound good plugged straight in, I'd be looking for other issues before looking for "magic bullets". But the most useful effect I own for pedal steel is my Sarno Freeloader, which is a buffer with a variable input impedance control, which varies the input impedance from pretty low (I think in the 100-200 KOhm area) to the usual Fender 1 MegOhm value. This can give some snap if the volume pot resistance is low, either from a low-value pot being installed or the volume is pulled back. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 7:04 pm
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There seems to be two schools of thought on how to set the tone controls on a Twin. I belong to the school that sets the treble on about 3, the middle on 8 or 9, and the bass on about 3. Of course the Bright switch is off. My 1970 Twin sounds the best to me with those settings. I've tried the other way and I can't stand it. Experiment!!!
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 9:54 pm
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| Just as an exercise, try cutting the bass to zero. Also turn the volume down very low so it's not completely unbearable. It'll sound bad but pretty quickly you will teach your hands to tame the highs and get deeper, clearer bass tones from the strings. Might change your perspective for when you try to find your settings. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 11:53 pm
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Regarding the question as to whether you need effects pedals to get good steel tone, I would say definitely no. I haven't played an MSA in many years, but some guys swear by them. I doubt the guitar is the problem.
A Twin that's in good running condition should not need any effects to sound good. I play gigs all the time using a Twin and I don't use any effects. (One exception is when I want an organ tone, and then I plug in that pedal just for the songs where I need that sound. Otherwise the pedal is unplugged and completely out of the circuit.) I routinely gets lots of compliments on my tone.
If your Twin doesn't sound right to you I would first get some decent steel guitar friendly speakers in the amp. That's a big topic. Second I would re-tube the amp and have the bias set. That's another big topic. Then if it still doesn't sound fabulous I'd have a tech look at it and consider a cap job, or other major service.
That could all get expensive, but your amp should sound wonderful if properly set up.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 8:32 am
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Thanks Everyone.
Electronic wise the amp is good. It is has very few hours on it since last year's total rebuild. New caps, new tubes
I had no idea I was going to play steel through it when I replaced the speaker. I wouldn't have put that Screamin' Eagle 12" in it if I had. It didn't have the original speakers when I bought it around 1985 and those speaker were really soft. I had the amp in storage since getting my Boogie in 91.
I'm finding with the EQ it is a very fine line in the high end between what sounds sweet and what turns into brittle piercing highs. I think this amp would sound nice with a nice 4 ohm 15" steel speaker or speakers that are a lot more steel friendly.
Higher wattage speaker might increase the headroom on it. But I shouldn't have to play too loud in my Country band. The PA will do all the heavy lifting.
I have some DBX rack mount EQs that are probably less noisy than the GE-7.
Thanks again everyone. ITs been a longtime since I have been this excited about learning new stuff in music. But I need a lot of work.
I'll give these other suggested setting a try. |
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David Cubbedge
From:
Toledo,Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 9:20 am
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At the risk of just adding another personal preference to the pile, my '73 Twin sounds great with the master volume on 10, channel volume on whatever your ears can handle (1.5), bass at 6, mids at 4, treble at 2! Bright off. Original Jensen speakers, and the amp was recently refurbished. Sweet, sweet crystalline tone that I just can't get enough of! I might add I use a smidgeon of compression and a 'Lil Izzy.
_________________
Red Emmons D10 fatback #2246D with sweet Hugh Briley split cases, Black Emmons S10 #1466S, '73 Fender "Snakeskin" Twin Reverb, Peavey Nashville 400, Line 6 Pod XT, Fender 400, Fender Stringmaster Double-8, too many guitars, one bass! |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 10:42 am
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My Twin is a SF, and it took me a while to get where I wanted to be, but maybe TRY this: Reverb off, all EQ's at '0', Volume about 4. Turn up the Mids only to a 'gig' volume, that's my starting point. Using a 6,8,10 grip, adjust the bass until you like it.. same with the Treble using a 3,4,5 grip. I like the bright switch!  . As the mids go up, the sound on mine gets 'brighter', and the controls are 'interactive', so adjusting one affects the others. As I increase Mids, I have to lower the Treble, and vise-versa. The Bass goes to mud pretty quick, so that stays around 3-4. Having the Mids up seems to add punch to the Bass on mine..components 'drift' over the years, and we all want to hear something different, so this is just something to try.. Good luck! |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 11:14 am
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It would also help if there is a song that is representative of the Steel tone you want to get, so we know what you are trying to get out of the Twin with your MSA.
I personally find them difficult to dial in a pleasing tone through the various rooms/halls/gigs I get.
They have a very fickle sweet spot, for Steel.
For electric guitar somehow a Twin seems like it can do no wrong, but not my first choice for Steel.
Some things I have done includes have Ken Fox do a Tone Stack mod (you'll have ask him), and use extremely Bass-ee speakers (compared to classic JBL's), usually in a separate cabinet, like Altec or Electro-Voice. |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 2:55 pm
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| Keep your mids below your bass and your highs below your mids and you can't go wrong. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 10:49 pm
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Dave, if you zero the bass and treble, it's a flat EQ, and the mid knob acts as a volume knob.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2016 11:41 pm
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| That's the point. Get some volume, set B so it's not muddy, set the T so it's not 'ice pick-y', and then you can come off the M a half number at a time while re-adjusting the B and T 'til you get something you like, then make it up with the volume knob. It helps me to 'see' how the T,M and B interact. I have a 135 UL, so I'm pretty sure it sets different from a black face, but, you gotta start somewhere.. one of my guitars sounds good with the mids around 8, but my PP needs everything around 4 or 5... but that's just in my house. When I gig, I have to adjust for the room. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 12:30 am
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It's fun to play with the knobs in the Duncan app (unfortunately Windows only)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 12:38 am
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Turning the mid control all the way down on a twin as your picture shows is IMHO the absolute worst possible thing you can do tone-wise on a tube amp.
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Dave, if you zero the bass and treble, it's a flat EQ, and the mid knob acts as a volume knob. |
While it's accurate to say that when both the treble and bass controls are set to zero that the mid control behaves like a volume control, it is not actually operating the same as the volume control, and the EQ is by no means "flat" in this scenario.
The mid control behaves differently than the other two controls, it's the last stop in the circuit and the filtered signals from others have to pass through it to finally send their respective signals to ground.
Turning the mid control to zero with the other two all the way down does attenuate the remaining signal to ground like a volume control, but it's not the same signal as with those other controls turned up to 10. A passive tone stack only removes or attenuates portions of the signal to ground, it cannot add anything. There is no "flat" unless you were to bypass the tone stack entirely.
Because the mid control is at the end of the line and provides the path to ground for the other two controls, turning it up or down directly and continuously affects how much signal is actually being attenuated from the settings of the other two controls. Whenever you change the mid control you are directly altering the effect of the other two.
For this reason, leaving the mid control at a fairly high setting actually provides much better (and more intuitive) control from the treble and bass knobs.
With PSGs, folks seem instinctively to want to just turn the mid control down on their nice old tube amp, but in so doing you are just muddying up the tone and actually robbing yourself of much of the warm and sparkly goodness that the amp produces naturally, stripping away significant portions of the input signal and sending them off to purgatory via the tone stack before the amp ever sees them.
If you haven't done it before, try cranking up the mid control on the old Fender and just leaving it alone for a while. Play around with just the treble and bass controls and see how much more responsive they are. You may disagree, but I find the amp's natural tone to be much more complex, clear and pleasing this way.
As far as effects, they are like hats. You don't need one to play or sound good but if you like them go for it. Caveat is that sometime they don't actually help, but the folks around may not tell you so (both hats and effects)  |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 2:39 am
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There are lots of threads here and elsewhere about the Twin Reverb tone stack and various ways to set it. Some of them go back quite a few years, so if you use the forum search, set the drop-down box to "All Posts" instead of the default 1 Year.
Or try a google search like this: "twin reverb" tone control site:steelguitarforum.com
You'll see lots of posts going back at least 15 years and no lack of diversity in settings. For example:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1081497
And there are lots and lots more threads on this. You might add "Brad Sarno" or "Ken Fox" to the search to get more specific results that feature input from them, which is, IMO, particularly valuable. I think it's important to go through a careful tweaking of the tone controls on a Twin to get an idea how they all interact with my guitar/pickup/etc. and figure out generally where I like things.
If you look, you'll find one or more threads with Brad Sarno talking about the effect of the treble knob on the center of the midrange frequency response dip, with 3-4 corresponding to a center of around 700 Hz. I like my frequency response dip just a hair below that, so I tweak that treble value one way or the other, and then adjust the mids to where they sound good, then adjust the bass to where it's properly full but not muddy. I usually start the controls in the middle of the range and tweak up/down from there. Everyone has their own approach. |
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Chris Boyd
From:
Leonia,N.J./Charlestown,R.I.
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 7:21 am
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Settings for'69 Dual Showman Reverb: T = 3 M = 7 B = 4.5 V depending on what's needed... Reverb between 3-4.... This is with a Sho-Bud Pro III redone by Jeff Surratt..and into a Fox cab with an EV SRO Coffee can ceramic 15".
_________________
https://www.reverbnation.com/bigredandtheresonators |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 8:28 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
It would also help if there is a song that is representative of the Steel tone you want to get, so we know what you are trying to get out of the Twin with your MSA.
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That is a good question. I like two very distinct sounds. For lead licks I like the West Coast guys. Buddy Cage on Panama Red on Tom Brumley's Buck Owens stuff, Ralph Mooney. I always though it was the West Coast guys .... and James Burton who taught the world how to use a Telecaster. But I also like that big lush sounds on slow stuff. Everything I am playing now are slow songs because I am currently the only electric guitar player in the band. The only songs I'm doing right now in the set are In Color by Jamey Johnson and Amarillo by Morning. Lineup is currently Acoustic guitar, fiddle/mandolin, bass, drums and myself. There is another guitarist who may come back if he recovers well form back surgery. I hope he does that will free me up to do more banjo and maybe steel. Steel is a work in process though.
It would be great if I could sound good on stuff like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYGwxf1gCC4
I love the tone on this solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w8CkHQJWo4 |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 8:34 am
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| Thanks everyone. I'm overwhelmed by all the input. I have a lot of reading to do. Thanks a lot. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:15 am
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Those EMMI speakers are indeed MID RANGE RICH. You can probably turn those knobs till doomsday and not get where you want. Bite the bullet, yank those speakers.
I have been using the stock Fender Gold Label Emmi's in the Fender amps, even my previous 71 Twin, they can be bright but the mids are easily tamed.
I also put one of these Fender EMMI Gold Labels in my N112, it changed the entire dynamic of the amp , more bright than middy.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:17 am
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I'm being half-facetious here, but if you really want the West-Coast sound, "Get you a Fender 800". I got one last summer, and wow does it have it in spades. The guitar may be part of it, but I'm pretty sure those lower-wound pickups are a significant, if not dominant, part.
Pickups can make a huge difference, and overwound (e.g., a typical single-coil wound > 18K) pedal steel pickups make it harder to get that brilliance, at least for me. Of course, there are other variables than DC resistance, but for a conventional pickup design, changing winding resistance has a fairly predictable effect. Jerry Wallace at TrueTone has been winding tapped pickups for years - Bob Carlucci has gotten good results on that sound with a tapped Truetone with something on the order of 15-17K full bore, maybe 12-13K middle, and even goes down to 8-10K for a second tap, more like a Tele pickup. I had an old Sho Bud 6139 w/ pickups wound something like 14-15K full bore and something like 8-10K tapped, it sounded great. I probably shoulda' taken that pickup when I sold that (I just can't really deal with narrow S10 guitars), but couldn't bear to mess up an original guitar.
As far as not being able to get a great sound on slow ballads with a West Coast setup - I'm pretty sure Tom Brumley was using a Fender 2000 into a Twin Reverb on the original Together Again. Basically a D10 version of the Fender 800.
Pretty much all my 10-string steels have something pretty comnparable to a single-coil Emmons (Truetone, Zum, Franklin) wound to 17-17.5K. Sounds fine for most any country music to me through the Twin Reverb without any need to seriously mess around with it. More heavily wound, I'm having to fool around to get it where I want it. If I have to have a humbucker, I prefer Lawrence. I'm pretty sure Paul generally has Lawrence 710s in his Franklins. So one certainly can get the great sound with a modern pickup. Of course, being Paul doesn't hurt.  |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 10:26 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
As far as not being able to get a great sound on slow ballads with a West Coast setup - I'm pretty sure Tom Brumley was using a Fender 2000 into a Twin Reverb on the original Together Again. Basically a D10 version of the Fender 800.
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I heard it was a beat up Fender 1000 with just two working pedals that he was introduced to the day it was recorded. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 5:15 pm
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And Brumley's Together Again amp was a Fender Bassman 4-10. I've read it here so many times, that like Rolling Stone mag, it must be true.
J |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 9:24 pm
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Yeah, sorry - it was a D8 Fender 1000 (not the D10 2000) into a 4x10" Bassman on the original. That was confirmed by Greg Jones through Tom back when, and I think that's a lot more reliable than Rolling Stone. Here's one thread where Greg talks about the guitar - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=275077
and another where Brad Sarno talks about working on that original Bassman - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/007062.html
I sometimes confuse the equipment from different versions - the one I'm thinking of was an early ZB into that Twin Reverb - um, this one from Bucks TV show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYKVb7T1n2I
But my point is and was that a "West Coast setup" with a Fender steel into a Fender amp can definitely do the slow ballad thing just fine.
I also hear people say 10" speakers are no good for steel, but I don't think so. I love my old tweed Bassman for steel, and it is another of those amps that makes a great guitar/steel single-amp combo if you don't have to cut through a heavy stage volume. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Dec 2016 9:52 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I also hear people say 10" speakers are no good for steel, but I don't think so. I love my old tweed Bassman for steel, and it is another of those amps that makes a great guitar/steel single-amp combo if you don't have to cut through a heavy stage volume. |
When I was living back east (early 80s), I had a 4/10 cabinet (I think it was acoustic brand, but I wouldn't swear to it), that sounded GREAT as a steel speaker: I unplugged the internal speakers and put the Session 500 next to me.
The key thing is moving air. Two tens will be far weaker than two 12s, but 4 tens is brilliant, but takes up a LOT of room.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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