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Topic: Anyone Lost a C pedal pull? Help |
Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 6:44 am |
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| I was trying to tune my c pedal on the shobud pro3 and then all of a sudden the 4th string stopped pulling. I didn't hear any pop or anything like something broke. It just doesn't pull anymore. My 3rd string still pulls. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 6:45 am
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| Also I did not have the tuning nut in too far. I had actually backed it off to start fresh. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 7:14 am
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| Check the pull rod and bell crank. It sounds like something let go. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 7:25 am
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Possibly the plastic clip that holds the rod to the bellcrank gave way. If you turn the guitar over, I bet the answer will be quite evident. Even if you aren't a tinkerer, a quick round of the Sesame Street game "one of these things is not like the other" will prove enlightening.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 8:39 am
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| What year is your Pro III, different pulling systems produce different problems. |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 9:14 am
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| Don't know the year. I haven't looked the serial up yet. It's an all pull is all I know. I will turn it over when I get home and look. |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 10:54 am
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| The serial number may not be of help as the Sho-Bud numbering system was unreliable at best. Instead, check to determine if there are any brass "barrels" present on the pull rods, if not, yours is most likely a later model...FYI: Later, 'Super Pro' era guitars featured straight key heads rather than the heavier, thicker style with the offset at the top (Gumby style). |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 11:40 am
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| The earliest Pro IIIs had two hole pullers and brass swivels that clamp onto the pull rod with a set screw (no barrels). The changers were 2 raise 1 lower. If yours is this style, the set screw has probably loosened and allowed the rod to slip. I believe some of the 2 raise/2 lower changers used the two-hole bell cranks too, if it is 3 raise/2 lower then it is the later style with a 90deg bend in the rod that goes through a hole in the bellcrank with a little clip to hold it in place. If the rod held tight enough that you were able to back off the tuning nut as described then I suspect it is the former. As Lane said, turn it over and it should be fairly easy to spot when you activate the pedal. |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 8:20 pm
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| It has the brass pieces. And I think it's a double lower double raise. |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 8:22 pm
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Best pic I can get right now if it helps.
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 8:51 pm
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| There are little set screws in the bottoms of the brass swivels that clamp onto the pullrods. Most likely the one you're having trouble with is loose or has slipped. If so, an allen wrench will fix you right up, 5/64" if memory serves. It's hard to tell what's going on from the pic, but the C pedal is the cross shaft in the upper right of your picture with two bellcranks pulling strings 4 and 5. Look there while depressing the pedal, you should see the rod slipping. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 9:04 pm
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It's also possible that the nylon nut, which doesn't last forever, stripped out. If the rod moves and the finger doesn't, that's the answer.
I can't believe we all missed that.
Nylon nuts are the brake pads of the pedal steel world, except they don't squeak when they're about to die.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 6:32 am
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| Ok thanks for the help guys. I'll look into these. |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2016 10:44 am
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| Sorry to bring this up again. I have my pull in my c pedal but before I can get the pull tuned it gets in the changer and starts to raise the open string. The highest I can get is about c# 430. Then it starts raising open string. Ive looked in the changer to see if ball ends were lodged or something else blocking it but can't find anything. I even increased the pedal travel slightly but still didn't fix it. Any suggestions? Maybe nylon nut?? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Dec 2016 11:18 am
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Can you move the dogbone one more slot away from the axle? That'll give you more leverage; that is more finger travel for the same amount of pedal travel.
Have you either not changed the strings in a long time, or did you accidentally put a wrong gauge string on?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2016 11:41 am
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| No I have tried two different sets of strings thinking the same thing. What are you referring as the dogbone? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 Dec 2016 1:13 pm
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Oops. I had this confused with the Carter in another thread. Is the rod attached to the bellcrank at the farthest hole out on the bellcrank?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2016 4:19 pm
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| Yes I believe so. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 31 Dec 2016 6:47 pm
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| Zach Chastain wrote: |
| ...before I can get the pull tuned it gets in the changer and starts to raise the open string. The highest I can get is about c# 430. Then it starts raising open string... |
Can you clarify this a little? When you say it is raising the open string, do you mean it is affecting another string besides strings 4 and 5 that are supposed to be pulled? If so, which string? Is string 4 raising from E to F# properly? Is the issue only with string 5? Does the A pedal raise string 5 to C# properly?
There may be a conflict with the A pedal being on the same pullrod. It's difficult to see from the pic, we can't see your A pedal, but it does appear that the A and C pedals might share a common pullrod for string 5, I can only make out one in the pic anyway, it continues off to the right out of the pic. If so, the correct way to do this would be with barrels behind the swivels at each so that the pedals don't affect one another.
These guitars were designed such that the outer hole in the E9 bellcranks sit beyond the plane of the cross shafts for the C6 neck, which are 3/4" lower.
In your picture, the swivels on your C pedal appear to be in the inner holes of the bellcranks as I would expect. If you moved the swivel on string 5 to the outer hole you would (probably) need to bend the pullrod(s) to clear the cross shaft for pedal 4. If you do have a shared pullrod this is not ideal.
Some better pictures of just what you have going on there, and more clear explanation of what is not working correctly, which specific strings are being affected, etc. would help us outsiders to see, and perhaps help you to solve your issue. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 31 Dec 2016 9:52 pm
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| Just a quick observation, it looks like the 4th string (C-pedal) pull rod is shorter than it should be. That suggests that maybe it slipped in the bell crank swivel. After checking to see if both bell cranks are tight on the C-pedal cross shaft, I'd loosen the setscrew on the swivel. See if you can lightly advance the rod toward the keyhead. If so, re-tighten the setscrew and see if the 4th string change is working. |
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Zach Chastain
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2017 6:17 am
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Sorry about confusion. Only string 4 is the issue. My A pedal seems to work fine. As for the tuning issue when I turn the nut on the changer before I can get it to f# is starts raising the string without pedal down. So the E that I had starts raising as I turn the nylon nut.
And my a pedal is on a separate Rod. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 2 Jan 2017 8:31 am
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Zach, from your description, it's difficult to understand what your problem is. Your original post states that the 4th string pull-rod is doing nothing when you depress the pedal, (which suggests slippage of the rod at the bell crank swivel setscrew). Your last post suggests that the nylon tuning nut is tightened too far on the changer end of the pull rod.
(I'm assuming you have not recently changed the 4th string using a different gauge and that you've inspected the changer to determine that there is no loose string ball end trapped in there).
Anyway those are two different problems, although they can occur simultaneously.
I'd suggest you:
1] Back the nylon tuning nut off 4 or 5 turns. Does it turn loosely? (i.e. worn-out) or does it still have some grip? This will probably rule-out the nylon tuner being the culprit
2] make sure the open 4th string is still tuned at "E"
3] turn the guitar over
4] loosen the C-pedal 4th string bell-crank swivel setscrew
5] work the pull rod by hand to see if you can raise the 4th string all the way up to F#. If so, you have eliminated the "changer finger" as a problem
6] gently push the pull rod against the face of the changer finger (toward tuning keys) until it just abuts it, and then back it off about 1/8-1/16 inch.
7] re-tighten the bell-crank swivel setscrew against the pull rod.
8] make sure the open string is still in tune.
9] If it's still not working, you'll need to consider whether: there is insufficient pedal travel length (unlikely to have happened acutely) or if the "raise helper spring" is too tight and pulling both the raise and lower changer functions simultaneously.
Anyway - that's how I'd approach the problem. Others may have different opinions or methods. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Jan 2017 8:40 am
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Also, I wonder if the lowering scissor is coming off the stop bar: a slightly too-loose lower return spring might be the culprit.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 2 Jan 2017 12:27 pm
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Your previous post said you were having trouble tuning to C#, which would be string 5. If the problem is string 4 only then everything relating to the A pedal etc. is irrelevant.
If you follow all of Tony's advice you may sort it. The problem you're describing is overtuning, which indicates insufficient travel on the pull. This could be caused by a lot of things but it is not something that would tend to arise suddenly unless you've relocated some pullrods or significantly changed string gauges something. Same with a loose return spring or an over-tight raise helper spring. It seems more likely something is just stuck in the changer, limiting the finger's range of travel. Pulling the rod from inside as Tony suggests in 4) and 5) would answer that question.
In one of your earlier posts you said you thought it was a 2/2 changer but from the picture it looks like it is the older style 2/1, which is completely different and can present a different set of problems.
Does that finger appear more recessed in the end plate with no pedals? I suspect your fingers are like the one in the middle of the pic below, 2 raise, 1 lower. The notched slots in the ends of the pull arms need to seat over the projecting flanges on the bezel in the changer. If one gets pulled too far where slips off of the stop flange on the bezel it can get stuck there, which would limit the finger's available travel. Significantly over-tightening the tuning nut would tend to keep the arm stuck in that over-pulled position. Remove the tuning nut completely and make sure the pull arm is seated properly on the stop bezel. The newer scissor style fingers don't suffer from this same potential issue but can still get stuck in various ways.
It's likely a very simple fix, these are simple machines, but it's difficult to diagnose without seeing the dynamics of the problem firsthand. Good luck
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 2 Jan 2017 3:41 pm
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Lane is right. I meant to say " lower return spring" not " raise helper spring"....... (growing older is a b*tch)
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 2 Jan 2017 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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