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Author Topic:  Best universal for $2500
Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 22 Nov 2016 7:06 pm    
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Most good buys on steels are out of production.

I own both an MSA and an Emmons PP Uni.. Jim Palenscar made parts for me for each one.. In circumstances where you can buy a full coped axe...the only parts you might need are strings. Don't overthink it... with your budget. .. you can buy exactly what you want and need... just be patient.

For over all ease of playing. .. the MSA is my more played guitar. The very late model MSA Unis had 3 raises.. With the right amp and pickup. .. it is beautiful in a band mix. The lacquer MSAs have the better reputation.

The Emmons sounds like a saxophone... but is a bit heavy in the pedals. .. will be changing it to Ext C6... because it sounds like it was meant for jazz.

A lot of Zum Unis come in over your budget. . But if you have the coin they will hold their value so why not?

Very very happy with my Fessy D10. If the right Fessy came up I wouldn't hesitate.

I have heard Mr. Thomas may start building Unis again. .. I have had many regrets for not buying some of his Thomas Unis that come up for sale from time to time.
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Rick Abbott

 

From:
Indiana, USA
Post  Posted 22 Nov 2016 7:24 pm    
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I had a Carter built for me from the factory in 2006. What a great guitar! I sold it reluctantly due to a tax issue. $2600

Eventually, I bought a 1998 (I think) U12. It was a pre-BCT model that had way better tone. $1500

#1 had a Truetone. #2 had an E-66 George L

I don't regret either guitar, I just needed a steel that sounds like a Sho~Bud Permanent. I like a classic tone, and the Carter just didn't do that. However, the Carter is on par with the best playing steels available. If I were you, I'd look for a Carter.
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Richard Alderson


From:
Illinois, USA
Post  Posted 22 Nov 2016 7:42 pm    
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This would have been a good one for $2,500 ! http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=278839&highlight=williams Newer and otherwise high end 12 strings often go for less than SD 10s. It's a good market to be in. You'll have lots of choices if you don't rush it.
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Billy Carr

 

From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 23 Nov 2016 7:45 am     U-12 guitars
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When I was playing Carter guitars, Bud built me seven new ones. Three were U-12's. Good guitars and can probably get one under 2500.00. Excel U-12's are the leader in the changer area. Checkout there website then one will usually come up for sale on the SGF around or below 2500.00. GFI is another U-12 that's good/affordable. Same with Williams and Mullen. Opinions are like the Road Runner- beep, beep!
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Jim Pitman

 

From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
Post  Posted 1 Dec 2016 6:50 pm    
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I've been a universal player for 35 years so i thought I'd throw out my opinions for the guitars I've owned. From oldest to most recent here's the chronology:

MSA "the Universal" S12: great mechanically, never cared for the tone though.

Zum S12 universal: great mechanically, seemed to lack sustain. (maybe just the particular guitar)

Emmons Push pull S12 uni: Great tone but compromised my copedent, never did get mechanically competent enough to adjust the pedal action right, stiff.

Fessenden SD12 uni: Best tone, cabinet drop/hysteresis bothered me now and then. Both attributes may be attributed to the double wide body?

Current Infinity S12 uni: Plays like butter, no hysteresis, good tone.

I still own the Fessenden an probably won't let it go.
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Jon Schimek

 

From:
Lyons, Co - USA
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 10:36 am    
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Thanks for all of these comments. They really help.

I really love the lacquer MSAs tone, so maybe "the universal XL" is a great option. I'm hesitant on the 2R/2L models though I probably dont need to be. Still, I'm keeping my eyes open for Williams/Fessy/Mullen/EMCI, but I'd have to get lucky.

The Zum and EMCI available now both look amazing, but its not clear that I really need to go there. My main concern is spending a premium on a steel that I may need to sell if I go back to two necks. Researched a lot and it really seems there aren't many "bad" steels out there since the mid-70s. These opinions all helped. Keep em coming if you have any more comments.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 11:17 am    
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Jon Schimek wrote:
I'm hesitant on the 2R/2L models though I probably don't need to be.


The 2R/2L can easily be converted to 3R/1L on the strings where 3 raises are needed, with Tom Bradshaw's conversion thingies. (We have to come up with a better name for them.)

The 2R/2L green MSA shown in my avatar had 3 of these units installed, converting strings 5 and 6 to 3R/1L, and string 11 to 1R/3L. This was done by putting the unit in upside down.

HOWEVER, this precludes adding splits without surgery on the guitar. when I wanted to add a split to the 5th string, it was necessary to have a hole drilled in the endplate to have a split screw installed. Jim Palenscar did the work.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 11:24 am    
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The Bradshaw Gizmo (my name for it) can also mount horizontally. One can also use Sho-Bud rods and barrels (if you don't want two tuning wrenches, you can permanently affix a 3/16" nut to an MSA rod so that the nut turns the rod), but you have to let the rod spin, or else you have to reach inside the cluster of rods to tune the barrels.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 12:42 pm    
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Lane Gray wrote:
One can also use Sho-Bud rods and barrels ... but you have to let the rod spin, or else you have to reach inside the cluster of rods to tune the barrels.


I had barrels before I got Tom's gizmos. They worked, but it was a major hassle to get them in tune. Tom's gizmos are a lot easier to deal with.

I guess gizmo is as good a name as any. (Certainly better than thingie.) And Lane is right, they can be installed sideways and work on adjacent strings.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 1:22 pm    
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Yes, Mike. But as I understand it, your rod didn't spin, so you had to actually put your fingers on the barrels.
If you spin the rod to tune it, the hassle dissolvea
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 3:13 pm    
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Lane, you are an accomplished technician/mechanic as well as a fine player. I on the other hand, am pretty much of a klutz when it comes working on the undercarriage. You can do stuff down there that's light years beyond my ability.

The only way I was able to tune the barrels was to get under the steel and hold the rod in place with a pair of vice grips while I tuned the barrels. And since I couldn't reach the strings to pick them, I had to get up from under the steel and pick them, then get back down under it to adjust the barrel, over and over till it was in tune.

There's probably an easier way to tune the barrels. But tuning the rods with Tom's gizmos is much simpler and easier.

Granted, my knowledge in this area is very limited, but I can't think of a single advantage the barrels have over Tom's gizmos.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 2 Dec 2016 6:48 pm    
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The one advantage is that you can have multiple (I believe the upper limit is 7: the limit comes from the fact that the barrel is almost three inches long, so you can't put a barrel on P4 and P3, since the bellcrank is in the way) changes on one rod, so the 5th string could have A and C pedals, P7 AND the split tuning of the A# lever all on one rod, all tuned at the same place.
If you don't need more, then no problem.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 4 Dec 2016 3:40 pm    
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Lane, after thinking about your last post, I've come to the conclusion that there is one situation where using a barrel is appropriate.

If you want to add tuned splits on strings 5 and/or 6, you need to use one of Tom's gizmos and a barrel together. First you install Tom's gizmos so you have 3 raises on those strings. Then you would put the barrel on the rods that work the changes common to the C and B6 D pedals, so that the uppermost rod can now be used to tune the splits.

The alternative would be to drill a hole in the endplate and install a split screw. Jim Palenscar did this to me 2 Classics.

In my opinion, this is a better option. But the other way works too, and does not require surgery on the guitar.
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John Russell

 

From:
Austin, Texas
Post  Posted 24 Dec 2016 8:34 am     Triple raise conversion
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I managed a triple-raise on my 2R-2L Sierra guitar. I only have the one-it's on the E string (#4). I learned about the Tom Bradshaw gizmo after the fact so I may try it but what I have works. Hard to describe, essentially it pulls an existing pull rod via a simple linkage. It's the E to F raise. It was easy for me because I raise E to F# via my RKL lever. The E to F change is on LKL. That linkage attaches to the E to F# pull rod and has a hex nut under the guitar. That's the only drawback, you have to find that hex nut under the guitar to tune it. Conversely, I rarely have to adjust it because the guitar stays in tune so well.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 24 Dec 2016 9:18 am    
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There Bradshaw Gizmo won't work on a Sierra, as the holes aren't the right distance apart. If I were to want to do it on a Sierra, I'd file out the nylon inserts so they don't grip the rods, and use Sho-Bud barrels. Fortunately, Sierra rods are â…›", so you can use Sierra rods. The wire nub should grip the nylon puller
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John Russell

 

From:
Austin, Texas
Post  Posted 24 Dec 2016 9:41 am    
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Thanks for that tip. What I have now works fine. I'll try to get a picture for anyone interested. It should work for most guitars.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 24 Dec 2016 11:59 am    
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Lane Gray wrote:
The Bradshaw Gizmo won't work on a Sierra, as the holes aren't the right distance apart.


Tom designed them to fit an MSA.I wonder which other guitars they will/will not work on.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 24 Dec 2016 12:04 pm    
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I think they'll work on most modern guitars since the spacing is similar. They might work laterally on a Sierra
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mike nolan


From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
Post  Posted 31 Dec 2016 3:17 am    
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My 2 cents to the OP.

Look out for a Fessenden, Carter, or Williams guitar. I owned a Williams Uni, and a Carter Uni. Both were keepers tone and mechanical wise, but I didn't like the color of either of them. Parts are available, and they are easy to work on. They can be had in the 2K range on a fairly regular basis.

The EMCI or the MCI with welded frame is a good option. I owned a non-welded frame MCI Uni, and there was too much cabinet drop/detuning on that guitar. It might have been a problem with that particular guitar, but it drove me nuts.

Lamar guitars are really nice, I owned a D-10 for a number of years. They show up occasionally, and there is some interchangeability for bellcranks and other pull train parts. Otherwise they are pretty custom. Lamar Colvin is still around.

I'm currently playing a late model Zum Uni and a '79 ish Emmons Push Pull. Parts are still available for both from a couple of previously mentioned forumites. The Zum is a breeze to work on, and plays/sounds great. Not super light, but not bad either.

The PP is insanely great. It took some doing, and a bunch of research to get it where I wanted it. I had to completely disassemble it and move things around to get my copedent on it. The only compromise is the lack of splits, and I like and use splits, if I have 'em. The pedal action on the single body PP uni guitars can be quite stiff. I found a method, posted here years ago by Duane Dunard, for adding raise helper springs to a PP. I adapted that, and it worked out great. The SD 12 Uni PP guitars are a bit less stiff, as they have longer changer fingers, and depending on the year, different leverage points on the pedal pulling train.
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Bill C. Buntin

 

Post  Posted 31 Dec 2016 6:21 am    
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The MSA is an excellent bang for the buck in my opinion.

There was a Dekley U12 went for cheap the other day.

There is an EMCI right now, on this forum that I would love to snap up myself

Some patience and clever shopping, one could get completely rigged out with a decent uni, amp, volume pedal etc for $2500, Easy.
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Brett Robinson


From:
Nashville, TN
Post  Posted 2 Jan 2017 12:43 pm     Bmi
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Cowboy's BMI is still for sale on the forum, plenty of recordings proving that guitar is worth the money.
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Jon Schimek

 

From:
Lyons, Co - USA
Post  Posted 3 Jan 2017 10:25 am     Thanks
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Thanks for all the comments and thoughts on this subject. In the end I think Mike and Lane talked some sense into me. I settled on an Lacquer MSA Classic XL with a 3R/3R changer. I found a pretty reasonably priced one that I think is pretty low risk, in that if I fail at the U12 I'll probably break even in the cost department. Not sure how "The Universal" and "classic XL" differ, but both seem close to a Vintage XL I was very satisfied with before I decided to move beyond the E9 neck.

With that said, it's pretty easy to get caught up in steel envy. I really don't understand why it happens but I was definitely drooling over EMCI, Kline, and Zum posts from the past and present.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 3 Jan 2017 10:49 am     Re: Thanks
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Jon Schimek wrote:
I settled on an Lacquer MSA Classic XL ...


Now you have to post some pictures.
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