Best universal for $2500

Jon Schimek · From: Lyons, Co - USA

I'm pondering getting into a universal newman style of tuning having just havin scratched the surface of the c6 neck.

Anyways I see a really nice looking emci for sale @$2500 and looking at other sold emci of welded mci guitars it's not really that out of line in price because of its condition. Still it got me thinking $2500 for a guitar whose maker has been gone for almost 30 years....I saw a couple kline go for around this price point, seems like a feasy or williams came thru well below this. Older MSAs can be had well below this.

I'm not in a rush as I've got plenty to work on with my current setup but I'm asking for opinions on what great universal options exist, ideally for $2200-2500 shippped.

Do you factor a companies current status into the equation? Ideally I want a not too heavy, reliable guitar that I can work on...Its tough to bring tone into the mix since its so subjective but I'd like opinionson getting into the uinversal game at a mid level price point.

Thanks
Jon

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I love Sierra Unis, but they're heavier. Excel's Suberb [the latest model] or Williams 400-700 series Universals are much lighter. Both manufacturers are still in business and you should be able to locate one of these brands for around your budget price if you're in no hurry. I have played Williams guitars, but I have no experience with the Excel.

Carter built U12's, priced fairly usually, not too heavy, but...out of business too.

I like my MCI D10 just fine. It's a little more compact, but it seems to be in the same class weight wise as Zum, Emmons etc. I would guess a similar situation exists with their 12 strings.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

In your price range, I'd get an MSA and pocket the change, or perhaps a Carter or or Mullen.
Current company status would be less important than availability of parts.
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Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

I've got an excellent Zum U12 we could talk some turkey on.
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Ben Lawson · From: Brooksville Florida

Jon I have a 1974 MSA Classic single 12 that I'll be posting for sale. Reese said it was made with 5/4. A previous owner took the 4th & 5th pedals off and set it up as a straight E9. If you talk to Jim Palenscar you might be able to get what you want for a lot less than you budgeted. I don't have the missing pedals or rods. Just a possibility.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=309147
and
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=308815
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Jon Schimek · From: Lyons, Co - USA

Thanks for the comments.

I thought both the Dekley and MSA classic were double raises/double lowers, so they wouldn't support this.... but poking around perhaps the Dekley is a triple raise.

I didn't mention it but I'd actually like to reduce the weight from my D-10 which is another reason i didn't give serious consideration to these Dekleys.

I am curious though the reasons why a Zum or EMCI would not be your recommendation. Is it simply a value proposition? I've read so many good things about Zum, Kline, and EMCI I'm surprised the price difference isn't worth it.

Thanks
-Jon
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MSA Vintage-XL, Pre-RP Mullen
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Absolutely, Kline, Zum and EMCI are all great guitars. My recommendations were based on what I thought was your desire for a lighter weight guitar and one that is in current build. If not so, there were many Zums and particularly Kline U12's built, so you could probably locate one if anybody is willing to part with one. EMCI Unis a little more scarce.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

A U-12 only need 3 raises on the 5th and 6th strings
Tom Bradshaw's raise/lower conversion gizmos can turn those strings into a triple raise single lower.

The green guitar shown in my avatar was a double raise double lower. I converted the 2 strings with Tom's thingies, and never had a problem.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I didn't mention EMCI because I've seen so few 12s.
I didn't mention GFI, Excel, and BMI because I'd forgotten them.
I didn't mention Zum because I'd discounted the likelihood of finding one in your price range.

Double raise/double lower guitars can be overcome either by the Bradshaw gizmo or using Sho-Bud barrels to share multiple pulls on one rod.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

While Lane and I have different opinions on the best way to put 3 raises on a double raise guitar, the fact remains that it can be done, and there is no reason why a double raise guitar cannot handle a U-12 tuning.

Perhaps I will a thread on the 2 different ways of accomplishing this, comparing the advantages and disadvantages of each.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm not convinced that the barrels are better, if three raises are all you need.
But it is worth noting that there are at least two options for getting more than two pulls on a double raise/double lower guitar.
With each barrel costing the price of a Bradshaw gizmo, there's a strong economic argument alone.

Oftentimes I don't mean to tell people "you're wrong" so much as saying "if you do X, trying to do Y will be a problem." If you don't need or plan to do Y, then no problem.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Lane, I am convinced that Tom's gizmos are better for one reason. The barrels need to be tuned from the undercarriage. With Tom's thingies, (we have to come up with a better name for them,) you tune the rods at the endplate. In my opinion, this is both easier, and more accurate.

My 2 former classics were both equipped with 3 of Tom's units, one on which converted a raise to a lower in the 11th string. (I had to install it upside down.) Once they were installed, they required no maintenance, and I never had any kind of problem with them.

Prior to getting them, I had the barrels, and while they worked, it was difficult for me to get them in tune.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

But they DON'T have to tune from the underside!
You can spin a nylon nut on with a threadlocker, or weld/solder/epoxy a metal nut to the rod, and spin the MSA rod, or if you don't mind a separate wrench, use a Sho-Bud rod.
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

MCI, Williams, Carter, Excel, Lamar all have at least triple raise/triple lower changers. Depending on the year, Carter can be 3/3 or 4/2. Excel's Suberb model is 5/5.

Advantages of these changers besides not needing these add-on tandem pulls, Bradshaw devices etc. are that there is more room for timing pulls and rodding. In addition, some of them use smaller pull rods which allows for more room.

Anybody that has a loaded up universal knows how quick the changer gets full. Sometimes compromises have to be made with lesser changers.

Not everybody that plays universal guitars tunes to the conventional E9/B6, Eb9 setups. MY Sierras were 8+7 and full 3/2 changers plus a couple tandem pulls. The 3/3 plus changers allow more possibilities or fewer limitations depending how you view it.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you don't mind feeling notches, pull-release, push-pull and barrel-tuned Bud don't get full
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jon Schimek · From: Lyons, Co - USA

Interesting... I guess I didn't realize you could make a lower a raise... That said, I'm probably more interested in a lighter all pull guitar that is 3 and 3.

I guess my question was probably really more geared towards wondering if higher end used steel from a defunct company was a smart decision for a U12 guitar.

I suppose this is the answer:
Current company status would be less important than availability of parts.

I'm not sure which companies are the roughest to get parts for but I do know Push Pulls are tricky. Seems like Kline may be tricky.. seems like EMCI can use GFI parts... not sure about Zum, but I'll have to dig around.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Getting back to the original subject, I think that red Dekley for $1,400 in the classifieds is probably the best bang for the buck. Even if you have to put a few dollars into some sort of triple raise mechanisms, Dekleys are wonderful guitars, and you will have a great instrument that will last you for decades.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Indeed. Throw in a hundred bucks in parts, a couple hundred in Kevin Hatton split cases, and you're STILL $700 under budget.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

MCI, EMCI and Zum have [edit:] 3/8" square cross shafts. Fessenden bell cranks will fit these. Long as Jerry is still manufacturing, shouldn't be a problem finding parts. [edit2:] I might be wrong about this, Fessy shafts may be 5/16. Don't know about GFI, Somebody straighten me out here. Don't want to disseminate bad info You mentioned GFI parts as well so if factory parts aren't a priority, you should be good to go there. www.psgparts.com does offer some parts as well, and sometimes a few used parts pop up.

Of course you may never need additional parts.

Later model Zums are 3/3. Not sure what year he went to 3 lower changer.

Best of luck.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I thought GFI was still running.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Still in business far as I know. Didn't say they weren't.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I might be wrong about the Fessy cranks. They may be 5/16". If so, they won't fit MCI or Zum. Sorry. I know that Williams bell cranks will work on MCI and Zum though.

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