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Author Topic:  POG2 plus Neo Vent/Strymon Lex
Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 22 Oct 2016 7:51 am     Reply with quote

I've been trying to find a suitable effect combo to possibly replicate the sound of a Hammond B3 in my C6 playing. There are plenty of rotary sound simulators, but none fill the bill for me completely.

I have a POG2, which is absolutely fantastic for a church organ or pipe organ sound. If I played for a wedding or a church service, it would be exactly the sound I'd seek. But it's not applicable for a Hammond sound like one would find on a Jimmy Smith or Groove Holmes recording.

I've been using a Neo Mini Vent onstage lately, and it's very effective if used as a background pad for a lead guitar or saxophone solo playing R&B, but when handed a solo falls short.

I have not tried the full Neo Vent, nor have I tried the Strymon Lex.

What I hear going on with the Hammond sound is the mid and low-range fullness of the stops being opened or closed combined with the variable speeds of the Leslie woofer/horn rotation and the sound of a big wooden cabinet. Bear in mind that I'm talking about only the C6 tuning with correct phrasing, blocking, and chord inversions (or as close as I can get).

I think there might be a secret in some combination of the Vent and the Pog, but I haven't been able to locate it. Admittedly, the full Neo Vent (not the Mini that I have) gives more variation in speed selection, but I haven't located a full Vent to try out at my leisure without dropping 500 bucks on the big unit.

Who here has used the combination of POG plus Vent or Lex to get close to a B3 sound to their satisfaction? Who has any suggestions as to settings on the POG? The Neo Vent has only 4 presets, two of which seem to be "possibles."
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James Quackenbush


From:
Pomona, New York, USA
Post Posted 22 Oct 2016 8:33 am     Reply with quote

Herb,
As far as the actual Hammond tone , that is one thing ...Then you have the added Leslie simulation on top of the Hammond tone ....The Vent's will simulate a Leslie just fine ..I use the full size Ventilator II with my keyboards and it does an admirable job simulating a Leslie effect , however it does NOT simulate the acutal tone of the Hammond Organ itself ...I have yet to find anything other than a midi setup on a pedal steel that can be attached to a midi module with Hammond sounds in it , that will give you a good simulation of the Hammond Organ ... Some companies are getting close to the sound of the Hammond , but still not there yet ...There is a YouTube video of an Asian fella who plays a $700 Yamaha MX61 organ running into a Ventilator II that is VERY IMPRESSIVE , but for pedal steel , there are far less options ...Jim
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James Quackenbush


From:
Pomona, New York, USA
Post Posted 22 Oct 2016 8:35 am     Reply with quote

Here's the link .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58CRo8Kwm1w
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 22 Oct 2016 9:18 am     Reply with quote

Okay, things are somewhat more clear, though not attainable since I don't do midi.

How about the EH B9 pedal? Anybody have experience with that unit?

Or the newer unit, the C9?
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James Quackenbush


From:
Pomona, New York, USA
Post Posted 22 Oct 2016 10:24 am     Reply with quote

The EH C9 appears to have more Hammond type tones in it ..It doesn't sound to bad to my ears ....Run this into the Vent and you might have a pretty doable setup ...Jim

My buddy uses the EH Mellotron pedal on gigs that he does ...He uses the string tone doing Bee Gee's and Knights in White Satin type music ....VERY convincing ...Jim
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Tom Wolverton


From:
San Diego, CA
Post Posted 23 Oct 2016 3:06 pm     Reply with quote

Herb, my signal chain is:

Steel > Freeloader >. Compressor > EH B9 > Lex > amp

It sounds pretty darn similar to a B3. I wish I could cut the key click totally off. The key was a clean compressor in front of the B9. I also rigged up a Lex speed change footswitch that I hit with my left heel.



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Jay Ganz


From:
Out Behind The Barn
Post Posted 23 Oct 2016 3:48 pm     Reply with quote

I love my Lex. When used with my old '65 Hammond it sounds about as good as the Motion Sound rotating system I usually use. The steel is a different deal though. The B9 samples I've heard seem awfully "churchy" to me...almost like the Hammond with ALL the drawbars pulled out. Jimmy Smith typically used only the 1st three drawbars pulled out. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't the POG only do octaves? The Hammond's drawbars bring out 3rds or 5ths along with the root. Then there's the organ's percussion settings figuring in there too.
Of course you can always try a wah-wah set at a certain spot and see what that does. Rolling Eyes
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 23 Oct 2016 4:17 pm     Reply with quote

I'm using the organ sound predominantly with Alvin Crow's band, because in addition the the western swing and country we do, we also do early-to-60's TX rock n' roll. Alvin played in the Sir Douglas Quintet with Doug Sahm for years and we do a great deal of that type stuff.

So mostly I'm using it for background pads behind the lead guitar and the saxophone. Only occasionally have I been thrown a solo, and I'm generally unhappy with the solo tone. The background pads are the primary use and for that, the Vent is very adequate. But I added the B9 last night and got a better background pad, IMHO.

Today, I'm working in the music room with a combo of the Vent and B9 in various settings. I want Hammond sound, but also having the sound of "96 Tears," "Wooly Bully," and the 8th-note Farfisa sound of the Sir Douglas Quintet would also be cool.

However, it always has to be played in context. What may sound great in the music room may suck badly onstage. And a sound with a high vacuum factor in the music room might be perfect when blended with the band.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post Posted 24 Oct 2016 8:27 am     Reply with quote

Besides the B-9, EHX also has the "Lester" pedal for Leslie effects. I have both pedals but have not spent enough time with them to make a determination as to like or not.
I have a bunch of Leslie simulators but it seems like I always revert to the H & K Rotosphere.
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David Gertschen


From:
Phoenix, Arizona
Post Posted 26 Oct 2016 3:52 pm     Reply with quote

I believe the C9 has a Farfisa (Compact) setting, if that's the sound you're after.
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Danny Naccarato


From:
Ft. Worth, Texas
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 3:58 am     Reply with quote

Try Line6 Roto Machine. I've got one and it's great along with Pog . I used it in the studio with ex Sahm guy Louie Ortega in Calif a few years ago.
http://line6.com/tonecore/rotomachine.html/
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 4:11 am     Reply with quote

Danny Naccarato wrote:
Try Line6 Roto Machine. I've got one and it's great along with Pog . I used it in the studio with ex Sahm guy Louie Ortega in Calif a few years ago.
http://line6.com/tonecore/rotomachine.html/


Hey Danny, long time no see!

I'm friends with Louie O., we occasionally play together with Alvin Crow when Louie comes out to Austin.

The EHB9 and C9 both use the octave splitting technology the POG2 uses, but have characteristics more "organ-like," so I'm leaning towards taking the POG out of the mix.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 5:15 am     Reply with quote

I don't have much to add to this except for the comment that using stereo outputs feeding two amps yields a lot more realistic sound.

I've tried the H&K and found that for my use it wasn't a lot better than the Line 6 Roto Machine which was much quieter. So I kept the Roto. I agree that the Pog series is pretty limited. I happen to like the steel with a Leslie sound so I never really tried to emulate the organ pads. When I was a kid I went to see Bobby Bare in Jamestown, NY and he had a steel player named Bobbe that had a real Leslie and that sound was so awesome on a live stage with no band mic'd PA system to muck up the steel sound.


http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Roto/Roto.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Pog2/Pog2.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Pog2%20With%20Rotosphere/Pog2%20With%20Rotosphere.html
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 5:44 am     Reply with quote

In '68 I did some tour gigs opening for Poco, and Rusty was playing a ZB through a couple of Twin Reverbs with a real 122 Leslie. Awesome sound. But the downside is you have to haul a real 122 Leslie around. Back 40 years ago, I had one of the Fender Leslies, which was OK for the time, but insufficient with only a 12" speaker and a rotating drum, not a rotating horn.
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James Quackenbush


From:
Pomona, New York, USA
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 6:12 am     Reply with quote

Herb,

Poco was one of my favorite bands back in the day ...It's interesting to hear that you did tour dates with them !!....I remember Rusty playing steel back then and remembered his gear too !!..... Small world !!...I still have a Poco cassette that was housed in a cardboard box and not the plasitc boxes that came later ...Jim

PS ...Back then I was gigging with a B3 and 2- 122RV Leslies, and a Moog MiniMoog ..... My bandmates loved me !!....LOL !!
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 6:59 am     Reply with quote

I had the Fender Vibratone and the the Model 16 Leslie with the rotating foam baffle in front of the speaker. You're right, not that impressive, low power and bulky and limited audio range. I should try one of my units in stereo to see if the improvement is worth it. It's easier when recording and going direct with two outputs. A live performance is a whole other animal.
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Danny Naccarato


From:
Ft. Worth, Texas
Post Posted 27 Oct 2016 7:14 am     Reply with quote

a cool feature of the Line6 Roto is a half-press of the pedal spins down/up the rotation effect. That to, can be set in the parameter.
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Ken Metcalf


From:
San Antonio Texas USA
Post Posted 28 Oct 2016 5:40 am     Reply with quote

Herb
I have a B9 connected to a Boss RT-20 that has a cheap midi controler pedal plugged in with 1/4 inch jack. Fairly simple to set up.
Hand operated pedal controls the rotor speed.
You are welcome to try it if you like.


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Bobby Snell


From:
Austin, Texas
Post Posted 28 Oct 2016 6:10 am     Reply with quote

RT-20 for me; the ramp up-and-down effect is important.

But also IMO its important to run the B9 directly out of guitar, before the volume pedal. And to use the supplied power supply to avoid noise.

I don't always carry the B9, and don't usually solo with it. But the RT-20 is on my big board for most gigs.
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Bill Terry


From:
Bastrop, TX
Post Posted 28 Oct 2016 6:33 am     Reply with quote

I've got one of the Line 6 Roto pedals that Danny linked. Works pretty good for the one or two songs a night I need it. I tried a bunch of the higher priced leslie sims, the Hammond, Vent and a couple of others. I found the Line 6 for 95.00 on Craigslist, seemed like the right price for 1 to 2 songs a gig. If I had to use it a lot more often I might have upped the budget. I do think it sounds as good as some of the 300.00 price range sims I tried.

When I was looking around I went back and listened to the first Poco album, which has Rusty playing the coolest stuff ever. The realization I came to is that much of the authenticity comes from playing style, note selection, etc. Check what he does starting around 2:05 on 'Hurry Up'... killer. I'd bet that's a real Leslie on that track, (maybe the 122 Herb mentioned seeing?) but his chops are the real key. For the 'tone shaping' part, I think I read somewhere he used a Wah pedal into the Leslie? Sounds kind of like it may be on this track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VxL_O87MAs

I hauled a Marshall half stack and 122 Leslie for guitar in a rock band throughout the 70's.. don't miss hauling that beast around at all.. but it sure sounded good.
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ajm


From:
Los Angeles
Post Posted 28 Oct 2016 1:27 pm     Reply with quote

I'm not sure that I have anything much to add, but here's my $0.02 worth.

How I'm using it (which differs from most of the other posts):
Six string classic rock only (so far).
Organ output only.
Mono single track recording (no live use or stereo yet).

About 3 months ago I bought a C9 used. I listened to a lot of YT videos, most of which were of debatable worth. It always came back to (primarily) the videos for the B9 and C9. I even made up a spreadsheet listing/comparing the two machines and my impressions of the sounds, similarities, etc.

I ended up getting the C9, but if the truth were known I'd have probably been just as happy with either one. I'll admit that I was probably sucked into it to some degree by the Lord Purple (Deep Purple Jon Lord) preset. I've always been a fan. In addition, the Shimmer setting is pretty addicting.

I fooled around with it sparingly for a couple of weeks, then set out to record parts for a song I wrote. I didn't spend a lot of time tinkering and preparing sounds beforehand. Most of the adjusting and tweaking was done during the process. The settings that I have used so far are the Lord Purple and Compact.

I'm happy with the way that the recording turned out, but as you might guess, I found some quirks with it along the way. Nothing that I can't live with, mind you. In addition, I went to a guitar show a few weeks ago, where I knew that there would be an EH rep demoing products. I went prepared with a list of questions/comments.

1) A few times, on power up, there would be no sound. I read about this on the internet from a few other users. The solution is simply to recycle power. I mentioned this to the rep, he said that they know about it, and they said that recycling power is the solution. I don't know if this applies to the B9 as well.

2) Premature decay of notes. He agreed, and if you think about it, it makes sense, and there isn't much you can do about it. With an organ, if you set your beer on the keys, go away, and come back an hour later, the notes will still be going. Our guitars, on the other hand, decay after the notes are sounded. Adding to that is the fact that some notes in a chord will decay below a certain threshold quicker than others. If you are doing solos or quick chord “stabs” then this probably won't be an issue. If you are trying to hold notes or chords for a longer period of time, you will notice this issue. As others have said, I found that it helps a lot to go Guitar-Compressor-C9-Volume Pedal. (My chain was actually Guitar-Noise Gate-Compressor-C9.)

3) There is a slight volume boost on some of the presets.

4) On the Lord Purple setting, there may be a teensy weensy amount of distortion built in. It is very tough to tell. I ended up using distortion on my amp for that setting anyway.

5) Note that I was using the Organ output only. On some presets the Organ Volume control does not go all of the way to silence. I asked the rep about this, and it is sort of by design. In those presets the Organ volume, Mod and Click controls assume different “functions” and interact to give you a lot of adjustment range. Those presets are 2/Prog, 3/Compact, 5/Lord Purple and 7/Blimp.

B9/C9 versus the POGs: I believe that the processing for the B9/C9 versus the POGs are not the same. The B9/C9 add other intervals besides octaves in some cases. If you mess around with the units you'll probably find this.

I read somewhere where the feeling is that the B9 has more “traditional” B3 sounds, and the C9 has a couple of “extra” sounds (like the Shimmer). You'll need to decide that for yourself.

I can see where having a separate “Leslie” that speeds up/slows down would be of some use to some people. The few times I needed this effect, I hit a chord and turned the Mod knob on the C9.

The end.
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John Macy


From:
Denver, CO/Rockport, TX
Post Posted 30 Oct 2016 7:12 am     Reply with quote

When I played with Richie Furay, I had to cop some of Rusty's sounds and used the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere in stereo and it sounded pretty good. I had a momentary contact switch velcroed between the necks near the pickup side so I could easily change the speed with my palm. Worked great...
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Tommy Detamore


From:
Floresville, Texas
Post Posted 30 Oct 2016 9:01 am     Reply with quote

I too used to use a Rotosphere. For example on the Doug Sahm cut "Beautiful Texas Sunshine".
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post Posted 31 Oct 2016 8:22 am     Reply with quote

The reason I like the H & K is that is has an output jack for a remote switch. I use a Boss two button remote and it can be used for low/high speed and off/on. I usually run the H & K through my stereo rack and that adds to the flavor.
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Herb Steiner


From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post Posted 31 Oct 2016 10:33 am     Reply with quote

Decay is definitely an issue with the B9 and probably the C9. I have the right of exchange with the C9 so I may try that one as well. But I'm gonna hook a compressor (which I don't normally use) between the guitar and the effect to see if that smooths things out.
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