| Author |
Topic: Push Pulls for sale |
Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 8:53 am |
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I have not tried the Infinity either but had the chance to hear Herb and Buck and Frank play theirs. I couldn't tell a lot of difference it Buck's tone from the JCH he played but I could Herb's from the push pulls he has played. The Infinity that Herb plays still sounds great but doesn't sound like a push pull. Frank Carter's tone is also outstanding on the Infinity.
I also have owned about 7 or 8 push pulls, all D-10's and none sounded the same, all were good but different. The best one to my ears was a 70 black fat back. Now if anyone craves the push pull tone and even better, try the Promat. I've got one sitting in my music room now that belongs to Damir. It is one awesome sounding guitar from fret one to fret 24. Even great tone all over with sustain forever.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 9:03 am
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| Bobby Boggs wrote: |
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| The PP tone is unmistakable when played side-by-side with an AP guitar. |
So I must assume the Infinity comes up short, sound wise when compared to any average Emmons PP? True or false? If so. In what way. Short on sustain? Just a watered down Emmons PP sound as is most AP's that were designed to sound as much like a Emmons PP as possible.? I highlighted Emmons because there are of course at least one other make of PP.
I remember years back. Mike Cass mentioned he had an EMCI or MCI that sounded more like a PP than most PP's, But maybe he just needed to sell it? Maybe he was just kidding. Don't know Mike all that well.
As for personal experience. Never played two Emmons PP's that sounded the exact same. While some were outstanding. All were good. But nothing to write home about. And then their were those with thick mica. Sounded ok. Were not very loud-lively and short on sustain.
That said. I really am curious about the Infinity and not trying to make a dig at it. The woods are full off PP's down this way. Haven't had a chance to try the Infinity.
Thanks b. |
Gee, Bobby, for a fellow that's not trying to make a "dig" at an Infinity, you certainly do couch it in negativity.  "Comes up short?" "Short on sustain?" "Watered down Emmons sound?" You don't have to come up with those assumptions at all, especially since admittedly you've never played one.
So since you asked, I will say that your assumptions are, in a word, false.
And since you asked about the Infinity, let me talk about my personal guitar that I play on most of my gigs in terms of sustain and sound, which is what you seem to be interested in. The sustain on this Infinity above the 12th fret is my preference of any of the all pull guitars I have owned. I can say that because I'm comparing guitars I have personal experience with, and I'm stating my educated opinion about guitars I've owned. Since I have 6 Emmons PP guitars (all distinct from each other, all I can say is the tone of the Infinity is different; the high end (strings 1-5) on E9 has a "transparency" that I love; balanced with the rest of the tuning. The balance between high end, mid-range, and low-end on the C6 is also thus, no part of the tuning honks louder than the rest.
But before you jump to the assumption "aha! So Herb must think that the Emmonses aren't balanced when compared to the Infinity!!," no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm just talking about this particular guitar that I'm currently playing. I'll let other Infinity owners like Buck Reid, Billy Easton, Tommy Dodd say what they like or not about their own guitars.
Bear in mind, I play through a Telonics volume pedal and not a passive pot pedal. That will in itself improve sustain and tonal balance.
Of course, there are other reasons besides sustain that drives someone to choose and play a particular guitar, though not to the exclusion of other instruments, right?
Some of the Infinity guitars, like my black mica axe, do feature the appearance of the Emmons, which is now very generic in the steel world. I see it as elegant and understated, which is why I like the Emmons look and why Buddy designed it to be 180 degrees different than the fancier Sho~Buds of the era. Other Infinities I've seen don't copy the Emmons look at all. I don't think Frank is trying to duplicate the sound of the Emmons; if he was, he would use single coil pickups and not Telonics humbuckers, for one thing. The Telonics pickup in the Infinity, which I believe is a modified version of the 409, has two rows of adjustable pole pieces which can fine contour the balance between strings. In any event, I love it.
One thing I never cared for about modern AP guitars is that they played too fast, too soft, too sensitive to foot pressure on the pedals. I'm sure Frank can set up a guitar with any feel a player wants, but I asked him to set mine up with just a slight resistance on the pedals, like my favorite wraparound feels to me. He nailed it. The crossbar return springs are adjustable. I can touch the pedals without the guitar starting the change, and when the changer engages the action is smooth and timed correctly and positively with no notches or timing issues.
Ergonomically, the Infinity fits my body like a glove. Pedal spacing and knee lever spacing, perfect. Unlike the 4 Legrandes I've owned and none of which did anything for me. And one thing I noticed immediately when I first unpacked and played my guitar is how each pedal pull snapped back so "in tune" and with such precision.
This Infinity is admittedly the first brand new AP guitar I've owned since I played Mullen and Fessenden guitars for awhile in the early 90s. And lest anyone think I'm putting down those brands, they're great axes both, and I hope they make their owners happy. And at the moment my favorite is the Infinity, which is why I purchased one.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 12:41 pm
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Amy time someone brings up push-pulls, the topic goes into the weeds. I believe the O.P. wanted to know about putting a Day system on a used push-pull. Look where it's gone...
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I need an Emmons! |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 12:50 pm
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Herb, sorry, I'm no writer. I took what you wrote about the Emmons PP's to mean you thought they were the greatest sounding guitars on earth. My questions about the Infinity were indeed meant as questions.
Seems Henry thinks the Promat may be the way to go. We, The Forum, could argue till the cows calves come home about tone. Which guitar or amp is best. ETC ETC. So this is going nowhere as usual.
I do want to thank you for taking the time to write the in depth review of your Infinity. In the end. Out side of the other Texas wrap-around players. If I start trying to name them I'll leave someone out. Anyway. The majority of my hero's own and really love the sound of Emmons PP's. But in the end, gig with something else. So nothing's really changed in the last 30 years. Just an observation from where I sit.
b. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 12:56 pm
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| Tom Quinn wrote: |
| Amy time someone brings up push-pulls, the topic goes into the weeds. I believe the O.P. wanted to know about putting a Day system on a used push-pull. Look where it's gone... |
His question was answered Tom so a little discussion after the fact never hurt anyone 
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 1:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| Push Pulls for sale |
Is the topic. The OP asked why. Are so many for sale. Least that's how I remember it. Short answer. My opinion. They ain't for everybody.
b. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 1:15 pm
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Pretty tense around here...
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I need an Emmons! |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 1:37 pm
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Two man or four man?  |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 1:57 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
| Two man or four man? |
-LLL- You are a funny man Erv! ;- )
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I need an Emmons! |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2016 2:01 pm
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Tom,
Just trying to ease the tension.  |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2016 3:18 pm
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I've also noticed the recent flood of Push Pulls for sale. Seems like the prices are down too, though this could be a temporary dip due to the current supply... brands for sale do seem to come in herds, recently there was a bunch of LDGs for sale too... maybe we're just a trendy bunch... anyway, good time to buy a P/P!
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Keller, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2016 3:23 pm
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Hey guys, thanks soooo much for all the info. Some of the responses got kinda passion but that just means you're passionately about what you feel. Based on the things said here I've decided to get a PP through Lynn Stafford. I really care not to explain why except we all know Lynn and less shipping involved. I've wanted a PP off and on for sometime now and I'm not getting any younger. A PP may not be for me, who knows? I'm a Mullen player so who knows. Can't have too many weapons in your arsenal lol. I am not going to close this thread because of the informative discussions, just be nice, maybe use a smiley face or two😀😀.
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Keep pickin', Larry |
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Joseph Napolitano
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2016 6:16 pm
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| Are there many(any?)younger push pull mechanics out there? If there aren't enough, this could present a problem at some point, if not already. Right now a lot of the guys with the best reputations are not that young. |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2016 6:40 pm
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OK Gentlemen, At the risk of opening mouth and inserting foot would like to comment on today's new design of volume pedal's and pickups and amp's you can make any steel sound very good. What counts is the great feeling you get when setting under your steel and the sound you are getting from your amp that just makes you feel as one and part of it. You cannot force it out of it, it just happens. A standard old volume pedal, a standard pickup, steel bar, picks and cords straight into the amp is how you test a steel to see how it sounds. Test them all the same way. I have set up front and close to Buddy Emmons on several seminars
in the years gone by and that was how he did it in small settings. Always Awesome!! Just my thoughts, J.R.
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 1:15 am
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nobody asked
How many is too many ?
over 4000 members and 5 or 6 for sale ?
is that a lot ?
The question should really be "why is the seller parting with it " .
I have one for sale, I don't much care if it sells or not but if it does I'm going to attempt to get another , an older one with more configuration. Then If I do get one like that I'll probably sell yet the OTHER one I have !
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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 6:06 am
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Joseph -
I don't know if I qualify as young (44) but I like to think I can do pretty well under the hood of a PP. I've rebuilt a few (most recently restoring a '65 Wraparound) and keep all five of mine in great playing order. I work on other's guitars as well from time to time. I've tried to learn as much as I can from the more seasoned guys, and I've gotten good advice from many of them. Yes, in twenty years or so, it's a good bet that many of the 'real' PP gurus won't be available to work on guitars, so I'm hoping I'll be able to fill some of that void (If I'm still here!). I'm sure there must be some other 'younger' guys doing the same thing as me... I hope so!
PS - I know my way around a Bigsby pretty well too, as I work on my Triple 8/10/8 with 8 pedals... but I guess that's for another thread.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Keller, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 7:13 am
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Hey Jim, IMHO you're tight about trying out guitars with just basics then add icing as wanted. Gosh, my friend a Jim Loessberg still plays with just the very basics and sounds great. I've got several possible combinations of rigs but usually dial in about the same tone. I've been lucky enough to try out most of the guitars I've bought or at least the same brand. As the only DAY player around here, I was still able to get a feel for the guitar or brand of guitar. I usually had to sell one guitar to get another, so whether I liked it or not, sometimes I got rid of some guitars I really liked to get another. I know PP's aren't for everybody and may not be for me but I'll never know if I don't try.......Hey tell Lou hi for me.
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Keep pickin', Larry |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 7:13 am
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I really feel sorry for pedal steelers who can't maintain their own guitars.
It's kind of like a trucker who never learned hot to check his own oil.  |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Keller, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 7:30 am
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Hey Erv, as a soon to be PP owner I'll be depending on Lynn Stafford and other folks on the Forum as well as other reading material to at least understand the PP better and somewhat maintain my guitar. As there are no PP mechanic very close I indeed need to learn but WILL NOT get in over my head. I'm retired and little road trips are fun, lol. I understand PP's are quite stable guitars and need little maintenance maybe just a little tweaking to fit me. Lynn said he would help me understand how to tune the animal and make it mine. I am really excited about this guitar and learning about it.
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Keep pickin', Larry |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 7:36 am
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Larry,
Accept it as a welcome challenge! |
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Jeff Garden
From:
Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 7:47 am
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| You can't go wrong with Lynn, Larry. He's extremely knowledgeable, eager to help, and takes a great deal of well-deserved pride in his work. Enjoy the P/P! |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 7:58 am
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I disagree with Erv's comparison. The ability to shift gears on a car is equivalent to knowing how to use pedals and levers to play. You can definitely shift gears in a truck without knowing how to rebuild a transmission.
Larry, if Lynn Stafford sets up the guitar, it will be correctly done and you may only need to do touch ups occasionally.
I'm a long time PP owner who's dismantled and reassembled many of my own guitars. IMHO a couple of important things to realize is that success in getting a great, positive, and easy feel on the PP is to coordinate three actions; you want the changer finger to hit either the body (on a raise) or the top row screw (on a lower) at the same time the pedal travel screw hits the stop bar and the changer finger pulls the string to the correct note.
This requires balancing the position of the bellcranks, location of the changer rod collars, and travel adjustment on the pedal stop screw. It's a balancing act and the more changes your copedent asks the changer to do, the more involved the balancing act will become. Hence the need for a good PP mechanic. I've had Mike Cass setup, adjust, and rebuild several of my own guitars until I felt I had enough experience to tackle the job successfully myself. My guru Bobby Bowman as well. Then I wondered what the "big deal" was. 
When I hear people say that the PP has a "mushy" action, the first thing I think of is that one or both of the stops (body/screw or stop bar) is not hitting its target and the pedal is being allowed to travel farther than necessary. The shock springs on the pull/push rods used for timing the changes have very little, if anything, to do with it.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 8:52 am
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I bought my first Emmons PP in 1980. The innards for the E9th neck came in plastic bags and a bunch of rods held together with a rubber band.
Days later I was off to the Yucatan for a month long vacation. And when I got back, not only did I have the Mexican trots but I had a big gig four days away.
I felt pretty rough, but I put that E9th neck together by looking at the C6th, played the gig and never looked back. Years later in Denver, I took the guitar to an expert and he only did a few minor tweaks. That old '77 push pull made me a lot of money and always played and sounded great.
The point is, it isn't rocket science. There is a bit of a learning curve and the real experts can make the guitars play really good but even a new-be like I was can make it work if necessary.
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I need an Emmons! |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 9:03 am
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A Few years ago I bought one of Ron's re-issued p/p.
Whenever I do some work on a p/p, I keep the virgin re-issue as a pattern. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 19 Oct 2016 10:13 am
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For me, Herb's last post says it clearly and best for me; to get a PP to work most efficiently requires a real pro to set it up. As a non-PP guy, I can change my copedant, keep the guitar lubricated and clean, etc. using less time and not many mistakes. Working on a push-pull would approache "rocket science" for many of us.
I'm sure I could study how it's done and give it a shot but I'd prefer to use what little time I have on this earth, playing the guitar rather than working on it. We're into do the work myself, In the end, I would most most likely have to send it out to a real PP mechanic to undo the damage,
Quite simply, I think, an all-pull is easier to work on than an push-pull for most of us. I am basing that on my experience as someone who is not mechanically minded but can keep my guitars cruising along. I admire you guys who are push-pulls wizards but am happy to walk the other road.
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