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Topic: Carter flaw |
Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 6 Sep 2016 9:10 pm |
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I had my second surprise failure at a gig with my 2002 Carter: during sound check the B pedal goes to the floor and has a loose pull rod. Awp! One of the brass dog bone rod links split in two and fell out.
Easy temporary fix: harvest a dog bone from a different pull and swap it in. Bye, bye, boo-wah change!
When I got home I made a better-than-new replacement: drilled out a 3/8" brass rod with a 3/16" hole , parted off two discs and threaded on a bit of 3/8" hardened steel drill rod. That's one dog bone that will NEVER fail. Lesson learned: will always bring along a few spare dog bones to future gigs or recording sessions! |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 3:24 am
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| I think Carter called them Barbells or dumbbells. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 4:47 am
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 5:21 am
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From an engineering standpoint, the Carter pins (dogbones, dumbells) are flawed. The sharp 90-degree angle on the inside of the undercut invites failure, as it sets up what are called "stress risers", weak points where force is concentrated. It would have been far better for the undercut to have the same radius on the inside as the pull rods.
Hindsight is 20-20.  |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 6:05 am
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Bob that's a well-known fail point. Yeah, keep a couple spares. I wonder if if oilite wouldn't be a better choice of material.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 6:44 am
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Yes, don't know who thought of this idea of the dog bones but Carters would have been much better to have the pull rods straight and go thru a little brass thing ama jig and just tighten set screw. Don't know what you call them and they are hard to find for me. I'm sure Michael Yahl my have them but just can't pick them up anywhere. The bend in the rods on Carters are also not easy to duplicate. Even though the dog bones work well, they do wear out in a hurry.
These are what Carter should have used.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 7:49 am
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Do MSA pull pins fit in the Carter bellcranks?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 10:29 am
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| No Lane, Carter's are smaller. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 11:30 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Do MSA pull pins fit in the Carter bellcranks? |
Well, they should have made them to fit, lol.
Been much better. Even though most builders use the bend in the end of pull rod, I do not like it and the little lock collars are much better. The bend design makes them harder to work on, the rods have to be right length, its harder to adjust slack out, harder to find parts and like MCI's, the rods jump out. Just a lot of things that make the bent rod type design flawed from the start to me.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 11:34 am
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
Yes, don't know who thought of this idea of the dog bones but Carters would have been much better to have the pull rods straight and go thru a little brass thing ama jig and just tighten set screw. Don't know what you call them and they are hard to find for me. I'm sure Michael Yahl my have them but just can't pick them up anywhere. The bend in the rods on Carters are also not easy to duplicate. Even though the dog bones work well, they do wear out in a hurry.
These are what Carter should have used.
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I've done this to maybe 12 rods on my Carter. A much, much better idea.
Michael's parts are 1/4" diameter, and Carter's are 3/16". I wish he would make these for Carters. They are $6 each with a $40 minimum through Al Brisco. That can get really expensive to do a whole guitar.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lee Dassow
From:
Jefferson, Georgia USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 12:27 pm
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That's where the magnum pro select had it over a regular carter. Carters second line. No dog bone. The pull rod was bent and went through the bell crank and was captured by a coil spring on the pull rod then sprung on the other side of the bell crank. Very ingenious and simple. Plus they used a 3/32 pull rod. I believe the regular Carters did to though I've never played a regular carter. Tenn.Lee
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2015 Mullen D-10 Royal Precision 9x8,-1990 BMI S-10 5x5-1972 Silver face Fender pro Reverb amp,-1965 Fender Super Reverb Amp,- 1966 Fender Showman Amp Two 15" JBL speakers,- 2006 65 Fender Twin Reverb reissue Amp,- 1982 Peavey Session 500 amp,-1978 Peavey Session 400,Goodrich Volume Pedals,John Pearse Steel Bars, |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Sep 2016 1:09 pm
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| Lee Dassow wrote: |
| That's where the magnum pro select had it over a regular carter. Carters second line. No dog bone. The pull rod was bent and went through the bell crank and was captured by a coil spring on the pull rod then sprung on the other side of the bell crank. Very ingenious and simple. Plus they used a 3/32 pull rod. I believe the regular Carters did to though I've never played a regular carter. Tenn.Lee |
I've also thought of using the Magnum bellcranks in place of the pro Carter ones. The bushing with the rod running through it works great though. It allows you to adjust the slack and I find it easier to time the pulls.
Carter's term for the "dog bones" is/was "pull pin".
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 1:24 am Carters
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| I switched Carter bellcranks on all seven of my new Carters and used GFI bellcranks. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 2:54 am
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| Lee Dassow wrote: |
| That's where the magnum pro select had it over a regular carter. Carters second line. No dog bone. The pull rod was bent and went through the bell crank and was captured by a coil spring on the pull rod then sprung on the other side of the bell crank. Very ingenious and simple. |
I hate rods with bent ends, and whatever dingus (clip, spring, etc.) they use to hold them in place. I would not own a guitar so equipped. The rod-thru-the-pin idea is far superior, since the length or the rod no longer becomes a critical factor, and the adjustment is infinite. Want to use an extra rod in different places? No problem, as you don't have to do a bend, and a long rod will work anywhere! (I've also never had a failure of a pin-with-setscrew.) The slotted pullers are another sore point with me, as there's no good way to keep the slop and noise out of the mechanism without some additional device. |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 3:56 am
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| The devices pictured in Henry's reply appear very similar to the design installed on Derby guitars. These made changes extremely simple and as mentioned, eliminated pull rod length as a limiting factor. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 5:26 am Re: Carters
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| Billy Carr wrote: |
| I switched Carter bellcranks on all seven of my new Carters and used GFI bellcranks. |
Yes Billy, GFI bell cranks are nice, a lot of adjustment on them so you can tweak out your pulls to the T.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 10:29 am
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| Jeff...nope, they're not the preferred-type part, and they will not work on a lot of guitars! |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 5:04 pm
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Carter's brass pull-pins are a bit quirky, but they're easily replaced, as some have suggested here, by a brass pin with a hole and a set-screw.
You can buy standard Carter pull-pins from Al Brisco (and help keep a true friend of steel-guitar in business) or, of you're really "stingy" (pronounced "stinjee"; it's Aussie slang for tight-fisted), you can make your own using 3/16 brass rod, and a small model-maker's lathe (e.g. Unimat 3 or small Taig etc) with a parting-off tool ground to the right dimensions.
If you own a Carter, I recommend an "Annual Inspection" which includes changer-cleaning plus removal, inspection and renewal (where required) of the pull-pins on the most commonly-used pulls, especially on your E9th neck.
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being.
Last edited by Ned McIntosh on 8 Sep 2016 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DG Whitley
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Posted 8 Sep 2016 5:22 pm
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So Donny, my Mullen would not be on your favorites list because it is both bent and slotted?
Just asking here, not trying to start anything. I always like to read Donny's posts and opinions on things.
(Oops, must have been thinking about another guitar, my Mullen is bent, but no slots. Sheesh, I am getting old. Sorry Donny)
Last edited by DG Whitley on 9 Sep 2016 9:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Dave Little
From:
Atlanta
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Sep 2016 6:50 am
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| DG Whitley wrote: |
So Donny, my Mullen would not be on your favorites list because it is both bent and slotted?
Just asking here, not trying to start anything. I always like to read Donny's posts and opinions on things. |
That is correct. My Millennium has slotted pullers, and if I had known that before I bought it, I might not have chosen it. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2016 7:42 am
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The collar/set screw is a good idea although it has one small setback. If you have multiple pulls on the same cross shaft that are close together,it requires,in some cases, removing another pull in order to get the Allen wrench into the set screw.
I played a Dekley for many years that had the collar/set screw and it was a pain to change some pulls but still better in some ways.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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memphislim
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 9 Sep 2016 8:49 am
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| Bob, it's hard for me to visualize the part you made to replace your failed dogbone. Can you post some pics please? |
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