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Topic: Would a new Push pull have a market? |
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2020 9:28 am |
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| What do you think if a new push pull could be manufactured today an sold at a competitive price would they get there share of the new pedal steel Market? |
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john buffington
From:
Owasso OK - USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2020 10:29 am
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| IMO, judging as to how quickly pre-enjoyed PP's move, it seems the market is still active and open. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 8 Nov 2020 11:14 am
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Ask Damir. Remember the Promat by Mr. Papic? It was out just a few years ago. It was basically the P/P Emmons all over again. Damir can probably tell you how they were accepted. MOF, I think he has one for sale on his page.
As I recall, reception was just lukewarm. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Nov 2020 7:25 pm
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My2cents:
I think the market has spoken for itself. Any patents have long since expired, and still...no one but Mr. Papic has ventured forth. The reasons are many, but the two main ones are that the all-pulls are easier to adjust and modify, and that modern all-pulls also have a much better sound than those that were made back in the '60s and '70s. Nowadays, whether it's a steel guitar, a car, or a computer, most people just want something that performs well, and is hassle-free.
It's much the same with '57 Chevys, they're a truly iconic and special car. But if they were made today, only a scant few would buy one. Also, there's the issue that a lot of push/pulls will likely being going to market soon, as the old guard who have collected and played them start passing away. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 4:00 am
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I would also guess the answer is no - people who want a P/P want a vintage Emmons P/P, not something new that supposedly has the same mechanics. Donny Hinson mentions '57 Chevys - there are reproductions of vintage cars that are very expensive and sell - but only because the original car is worth even more - things like the repro Shelby Cobras and Ford GT40's. But a good quality P/P, refurbished by one of the experts, can be had for the same or less than a new guitar could be built for.
Just my opinion, of course.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 5:32 am
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| If you could make a guitar with PP mechanics that was lighter, tuned at the end plate only, was easy to change copedents on, had raises and lowers sum to the combination, and still had that tone, then yes. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 7:49 am
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I would start with getting the rights to the brand name/logo and then partner up with a builder who can legitimately carry the tradition like Jack Strayhorn. Build a real Emmons. That would awesome.
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Bob |
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Justin Emmert
From:
Greensboro, NC
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 8:54 am
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| IMO, what sells push pulls is the tone. Figure out how to recreate that tone with modern changer, easier action and lighter package, then you have a winner. |
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Jim Hollingsworth
From:
Way out West
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 9:41 am
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In my humble opinion the Zum hybrid And Rittenberry prestige both come very close to the push pull sound without the headaches. I own to push pulls and to Ritts and feel they are very close.
Jim |
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Mike Vallandigham
From:
Martinez, CA
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 10:39 am
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I don't think a new push pull would have much market.
There are 3-4 PPs for sale on this very forum each day, and probably many more on other sites or available privately.
I think there is good demand, and plenty of guitars to satisfy that demand.
I just bought one, so I'm doing my part! |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 11:21 am
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meh.. No need.. Original Emmons PP guitars had a truly fabulous sound, but so did Buds, ZB's, Fenders, Zums, and several other brands during the years when Emmons PP guitars were popular.. They were ALL great sounding guitars.. A great old PP is a great sounding horn. Many players proved that fact. Does a PP sound any "better" than Brumleys ZB? Than Paul Jrs. Franklin? Than Lloyds Bud?.. Pete's crusty old Fender 400?... The answer is no.. They all sound great, and are all different..
The PP design is no longer around for the same reason The ZB all pull design,the Fender cable design, and the Marlen/Clark/old Bud pull release designs are no onger in use except for beginner models. The all pull design is a better all around system thats lighter, easier to adjust, more user friendly than a PP system.. Its really that simple.
Most modern players use all pull guitars because they sound great and play great and are reliable.. Yes a few out there will play nothing but an old PP Emmons and I respect that 100%... Same can be said about old Buds too. Still plenty of them being played.
However, each year there are fewer seen on pro stages... Modern steels are every bit as good sounding to most players and listeners... Even the man himself in his later years felt no need to play the very guitar that bore his name.. there simply was no need.. He sounded every bit as wonderful on other brands.. bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 1:07 pm
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| I could see there being a small market for a brand new Emmons push pull , more so if there were one or two former Emmons staff involved and it had the Emmons name on it . They could build some LeGrandes while they were at it. Be more of a market for those I would think. |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 1:34 pm
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My two cents worth:
I think any quality guitar made by reputable builders would do reasonably well. Considering new makers are often back ordered a year plus, and many younger players getting into this, there is definitely a market. Plus there are more misconceptions surrounding the push pull than one can shake a stick at: truth is, a properly setup setup(factory condition) push pull is as, or more reliable and consistent, than any steel being made today(and sounds great to boot). In a standard E9 tuning, all of the notes ARE tuned at the endplate, with only the 4th string having the half tone adjusted under the guitar, which rarely needs adjusted. I think those wanting a solid instrument with great tone to make their music with would be interested. |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 1:38 pm
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The top 3 steels tone wise, IMHO:
1. PP
2. Zum
3. MSA Classic laquer/Supersustain
I would pay cash if there was a local one of any of these D-10s for sale, as I will NOT buy an instrument online. I haunt Craig's all the time for these.
So, with me, there would be a market.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 2:57 pm
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I think that the Jackson pull release guitars being made today have the tone and are a lot easier to set up than either a PP or an older pull release.
I'm still a permanent fan myself.
Dave |
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Ken Mizell
From:
Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA
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Posted 9 Nov 2020 5:37 pm
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I would imagine if a new PP was sold these days, especially an Emmons PP clone, it would cost $20,000. I don't see the need anymore, and that includes a LeGrande - Many current day PSG's are as good or better than the Emmons LeGrande, to include Mullen, Rains, etc.
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Steeless. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 3:13 am
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There was a thread on this before, back when the Emmons company was still in business. General trend was if there was a viable market for new ones Emmons would still be building them, and they "aint".
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit (for sale) |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 5:10 am
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| Rich Upright wrote: |
The top 3 steels tone wise, IMHO:
1. PP
2. Zum
3. MSA Classic laquer/Supersustain
I would pay cash if there was a local one of any of these D-10s for sale, as I will NOT buy an instrument online. I haunt Craig's all the time for these.
So, with me, there would be a market. |
Interesting that you would include the original MSA Classic as one of the best sounding steels.. They were used on stage by very few top pros back in the day with the notable exception of Chalker, due to the lack of tone mostly [in my opinion], as in those days it was conceded to be among the best built, most reliable designs available.
Don't get me wrong, I played MSA guitars for decades, mostly because they were tough, stable and reliable in challenging conditions, but always conceded that they never had the tone of an Emmons, Bud, ZB,Fender, Zum, etc back in the day.. They were readily available, reasonably priced, and reliable so they were everywhere on local stages, but rarely seen on national stages with top pros behind them...bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 5:14 am
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Before Jimmie Crawford passed away he showed me some ideas he had for a hybrid approach-the ability to have both all pull and push pull fingers in a changer, allowing for both splits on some strings and raise dominance on others. Would have been pretty radical. I also think my JCH is the closest tone wise to my PP’s, so who knows what kind of market that would have generated.
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 7:11 am
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| John Macy wrote: |
| Before Jimmie Crawford passed away he showed me some ideas he had for a hybrid approach-the ability to have both all pull and push pull fingers in a changer, allowing for both splits on some strings and raise dominance on others. Would have been pretty radical. I also think my JCH is the closest tone wise to my PP’s, so who knows what kind of market that would have generated. |
Just curious, is the lack of tunable splits with the Push Pull the major turn off for its being a usable modern guitar? Other notable practical turn offs? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 7:26 am
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| Kelcey ONeil wrote: |
Just curious, is the lack of tunable splits with the Push Pull the major turn off for its being a usable modern guitar? |
I would say no. Tunable splits are just another way of getting two different notes, which you can do better (IMHO) by adding another pedal or lever. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 7:34 am
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Like Donny said, not for me, as I separate them, too. But having the raise dominate on the 2nd and 6th string on my JCH would be amazing for me.
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 10:01 am
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
| Rich Upright wrote: |
The top 3 steels tone wise, IMHO:
1. PP
2. Zum
3. MSA Classic laquer/Supersustain
I would pay cash if there was a local one of any of these D-10s for sale, as I will NOT buy an instrument online. I haunt Craig's all the time for these.
So, with me, there would be a market. |
Interesting that you would include the original MSA Classic as one of the best sounding steels.. They were used on stage by very few top pros back in the day with the notable exception of Chalker, due to the lack of tone mostly [in my opinion], as in those days it was conceded to be among the best built, most reliable designs available.
Don't get me wrong, I played MSA guitars for decades, mostly because they were tough, stable and reliable in challenging conditions, but always conceded that they never had the tone of an Emmons, Bud, ZB,Fender, Zum, etc back in the day.. They were readily available, reasonably priced, and reliable so they were everywhere on local stages, but rarely seen on national stages with top pros behind them...bob |
I'm going by personal experience..I owned a D-10 Classic a few years ago that had the most incredible tone; I still have recordings of me playing it...I sold it, because I was facing heart surgery & wasn't sure I could lift it afterwards, as you know MSA's are heavy. But it had tone for days;
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2020 2:58 pm
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Rich, I owned a "vintage" MSA pedal steel, the name given for a solid wood body variant. It seemed to me at the time that this was MSA's premier offering. I can attest - it had a sterile tone and lacked sustain. I attributed it to the above average thickness of the body and wooden neck. However it was a stable guitar tuning wise.
I've never played the "classic" so can'st pass judgement on that tone.
The build difference of the vintage may account for the negative MSA tone opinions. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 11 Nov 2020 7:21 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
My2cents:
I think the market has spoken for itself. Any patents have long since expired, and still...no one but Mr. Papic has ventured forth. The reasons are many, but the two main ones are that the all-pulls are easier to adjust and modify, and that modern all-pulls also have a much better sound than those that were made back in the '60s and '70s. ...
But if they were made today, only a scant few would buy one. Also, there's the issue that a lot of push/pulls will likely being going to market soon, as the old guard who have collected and played them start passing away. |
I resemble that remark!!!  
Parenthetically, I have 3 '67 S-10 PPs, and a '64 wraparound D-10 I'm fixing to part with. 
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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