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Topic: "Tension" in Emmons cabinets |
Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 23 Jun 2016 8:06 am |
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In a few posts regarding Emmons push-pull guitars, I have seen some statements that I don't understand and wonder if anyone could provide some clarification. Being somewhat a student of pedal steel construction I have a curiosity about these things.
It was stated that an Emmons cabinet was "not simply a wooden cabinet that you added parts to" or words to that effect.
There have also been posts mentioning "tension built in to the cabinet".
People who actually have direct knowledge of how the Emmons cabinets were assembled are invited to please reply. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 6:25 am
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| It has been said that the tolerances were so tight between the cabinet and the end plates that the end plates had to be beat on with a rubber mallet. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 10:19 am
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| beating on the endplates to assemble the guitar....now that's precision! |
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Billy McCombs
From:
Bakersfield California, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 10:31 am
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Beats a 5 LB.Sledge Hammer.LOL
_________________
78 Emmons PP,Great tone.82 Emmons SKH #56 |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 10:55 am
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From my visits with steel guitar builders over the years there is absolutely nothing unusual about a rubber mallet being used to help put on endplates.
I'm interested in hearing about how you guys that find it funny to use a rubber mallet get the wooden body to resonate throughout the rest of the steel.
_________________
Bob |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 10:55 am
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Sho-Bud? Yeah ..... not so much.
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 11:17 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| From my visits with steel guitar builders over the years there is absolutely nothing unusual about a rubber mallet being used to help put on endplates. |
Only, with an Emmons D10, that is not how you do it. Maybe to remove the endplates, but certainly not to get a D10 Emmons body into endplates. That is absolutely not how an Emmons D10 is designed.
Of course, a singe neck Emmons is different. All you can do is the rubber mallet thing.
On a D10 Emmons, especially the pre-jig guitars, the cross shafts, the few screws done the center, and even the control panel have a role in the cabinet integrity -- that is the reason they added the control panel in the Fall of 1964.
Fitting endplates to a D10 cabinet with a rubber mallet is Sho-Bud and everyone else, but not Emmons.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 11:35 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
From my visits with steel guitar builders over the years there is absolutely nothing unusual about a rubber mallet being used to help put on endplates.
I'm interested in hearing about how you guys that find it funny to use a rubber mallet get the wooden body to resonate throughout the rest of the steel. |
I suppose that's directed at me....didn't say it was funny or unusual...have a nice day and a great weekend. |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 11:47 am
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Doug, it could be that the cabinets are made with a slight upwards curve in them, so that there is little cabinet droop...
Just guessing...
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 12:09 pm
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My little S10 wraparound has a lot of tension built into it. It's the only one I have, and it was hand made, so I don't know if it speaks for all s10 wraps... The end plates are incredibly tight fitting - it is built slightly bowed out so the cabinet has to be squeezed to fit between the ears. So the cabinet is under constant tension. It's not just sitting there - it's pushing out. The changer pillow blocks have the rear bolts inserted, then squeezed to get the front bolts tha t sit under the neck through, putting tension on the changer. It's very noticeable. I'm not sure exactly what it does to the sound of the guitar, but I would guess that it makes it all that much tighter, helping with sustain, which this guitar has oodles of. This is the first S10 I've taken down and put back together, so I might be explaining the obvious...
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2016 5:12 pm
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The tension I was referring to in the quote in the beginning of the thread you cannot accomplish with a single neck.
Where are the rear bolts you refer to. On your guitar do they go through the endplate tab o do they miss it?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Abe Levy
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2016 4:38 am
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Chris - sorry for the confusion - I wasn't replying to you, I was relaying my own experience to the OP. The bolts that go into the pillow blocks do not go through the tabs of the end plate.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2016 11:45 am
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I had one of the Canadian single neck Wraparounds that was retrofitted with the changer pillow screws backing tab extended to fasten to the endplate. I was wondering if yours had been worked on by the same guy.
One of the unique features of a Wraparound, Abe sees this in his guitar, is that the Wraparound is the only Professional Emmons where the changer is not attached to the endplate. A bolt on is attached to the endplate because the neck is, and of course the cut tail has the changer mount block.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 25 Jun 2016 12:13 pm
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Speaking of "rubber mallet" use. I was rebuilding a P/P several years back and Mike Cass did the mica work for me.
After he shipped the cabinet back to me, he called to tell me that after tightening the tuning key mounts and installing the neck, to tap the end of the cut-tail changer "patent pending" block w/ a mallet before final tightening of the neck and exposed pillow blocks screws. The guitar sustained and sounded much better after the rebuild.
BTW: Mike's mica job was better than OEM, at a fairly reasonable price. |
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2016 6:11 pm
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Thank you to everyone for the replies here and in private.
I have visited with people who did work at the Emmons factory assembling later p/p guitars alongside Ron Sr. and with people who have dissected earlier p/p guitars. Evidently there were at least two different methods of assembling the cabinets, likely during different time periods.
I was just wanting to see if there was possibly something I could learn that would benefit my own manufacturing processes. Wasn't really trying to pry into any guarded secrets of a defunct factory, or learn the secret Mason's handshake or anything like that, so I hope I didn't offend anyone by asking although I guess it is a bit of some of the tricks of the trade.
Thanks again to all.
This thread can be closed as far as I'm concerned, or if the moderator would like to leave it open that's OK too.
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Doug Earnest
Manufacturer of Stage One & Encore pedal steel guitars
http://www.stageonesteelguitars.com
"Teach Your Children Well" |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 30 Jun 2016 2:15 am
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I had a 71 D-10 PP. I disassembled it twice to clean the changers, which involved taking off the keyhead end piece to remove the A pedal rods. It wasn't hard getting off or back on, on my particular Emmons.
I worked on Emmons guitars when I was the amp/repair tech for Little Roy Wiggins "Music City" music store. It was the "official" Emmons dealer for Nashville. I've taken off several end plates in the 71/72 time frame and don't recall them being "tight".
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GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2016 9:34 am
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I would think that ShoBud, Show Pro or Mullen and probably others would have tighter body contact with the endplates than Emmons because of the bolts thru the front of the endplates that attach the endplate to the cabinet. I don't know how tension is accomplished in the Emmons but I would think it has something to do with the cabinet being in two pieces when it is assembled to the endplates and after assembly the screws are put it down the middle of the cabinet to tie the two necks together. Being the genius's Ron Lashley and Buddy were, I'm sure there is something to it, I just don't know what.
Jerry
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http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 1 Jul 2016 6:55 am
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This doesn't really pertain to "assembly", but more to design.
Has anyone ever considered the type of wood or the direction of the grain?
Quartersawn versus flatsawn?
I believe that quartersawn guitar necks are thought to be more rigid or stable.
Just a thought. |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 1 Jul 2016 7:33 am
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Slab-sawn wood would have more rigidity along the grain while quarter-sawn wood has more dimensional stability across the grain, but screws can more easily split the quarter-sawn wood, especially at the ends of the deck. It would be difficult to find 6" deck wood that is truly quarter-sawn and more likely you would find rift-sawn which is somewhere in between. I know of builders that intentionally orient their rift-sawn wood in certain directions.
I would think the front apron could be pre stressed and jointed to help offset some of the string tension and cabinet drop? Wood has its greatest potential to flex in any direction from its equilibrium or relaxed state. Pre stressing and jointing the front apron before assembly might reduce some of that flex.
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Jerry Jones |
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