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Topic: Does Pickup/Amp Selection Matter More than Brand of PSG? |
Chris Grigsby
From:
Boulder, CO
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Posted 27 May 2016 7:18 am |
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Seems like there is a ton of discussion here on the different tone or sound of Brand X versus Brand Y guitar, but doesn't the type of pickup and/or amp make a much bigger difference in tone than the particular brand of guitar, assuming they are both all-pull designs? Or is that not your experience?
I've only played an Emmons Legrande II and a Show Pro so I'm genuinely curious. Those two guitars certainly sound different, but the Emmons was a single coil and the Show Pro has a humbucker with a coil tap, so I'm not sure if the tonal difference is a function of the pickups or the actual guitar.
Trying out a new setup in the next week or so as I have a single coil equipped Mullen G2 and a Quilter Steelaire en route to me as I type.
Discuss.
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Mullen Discovery S10, Hilton VP, Kemper Profiler Head and Kabinet. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 27 May 2016 7:57 am
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Chris Grigsby
From:
Boulder, CO
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Posted 27 May 2016 8:16 am
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Ha, well I suppose a picture is worth a thousand words!
Erv, what would you say causes the difference in tonality between one all pull guitar and the next? I'm guessing the cabinets are pretty similar in terms of construction and wood used, so is it just the design of the changer that gives them different tone?
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Mullen Discovery S10, Hilton VP, Kemper Profiler Head and Kabinet. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 27 May 2016 8:21 am
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Chris,
No, it is not just a single item that contributes to the difference in tone between one guitar and the next. It is a combination of things and all these things added together makes the difference, including the color shirt you are wearing when you play it.  
Sorry about that last remark, I just couldn't help myself!  |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 27 May 2016 8:58 am
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Irv is right. Everything makes a difference.
My Quilter Steelaire and Music Man Twin both sound great but not the same. Neither one will duplicate the tones produced by the other.
Likewise, I have compared the Tone Aligner and Alumitone pickups. Again, both are good, but not the same.
And the zirc bar sounds noticeably different from my steel bars.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Chris Grigsby
From:
Boulder, CO
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Posted 27 May 2016 9:20 am
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I guess that is my point...everything makes a difference, so why do so many focus on the tonal impact of the guitar versus the amp, pickup, bar, etc...?
Put another way, I wonder if two different brand guitars with single coils would sound more similar than two of the same brand guitars, one with a humbucker and one with a single coil? Or if two different brand guitars through the same amp would sound more similar than two of the same brand guitars through different amps?
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Mullen Discovery S10, Hilton VP, Kemper Profiler Head and Kabinet. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 27 May 2016 9:25 am
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You don't even have to go as far as two different brands of guitars. You can take, supposedly, two identical guitars of the same brand and one will sound better than the other.
It was said that the Big E would strum the strings on a pedal steel and then grab a leg. If he could feel the string vibrations, that was a good guitar.
Life is a mystery, including steel guitars. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 May 2016 9:40 am
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the best idea is to just pick a guitar and settle back into learning it and making it sound good.
you'll find in time that what you make that sound like, is pretty much what any other combination of gear is going to sound like with you playing it. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 May 2016 2:16 am
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| Chris Grigsby wrote: |
| I guess that is my point...everything makes a difference, so why do so many focus on the tonal impact of the guitar versus the amp, pickup, bar, etc...? |
I don't know why anyone does anything, but...
I prefer to start at one end of the sound-chain - the instrument, and work my way through to the other end - the speaker, and tune all the important and the less important details until I have made all components work as optimal in isolation and together as I possibly can - preferably without replacing or adding-in too many components.
I don't mind throwing out components that I find no need for, as the fewer components the better.
For such a "point-by-point procedure" to make sense, "personal preferences" and some "reference equipment" is necessary. Having that takes most of the guesswork out of the equation, and I won't have to test out lots of different "component combinations" to reach my end-goal: a "package" that responds in ways I like, when I play it.
Maybe not the way to go if one is on the search for "something magic" in a simple sound-chain, but it suits me - as retired mechatronic engineer - just fine.
In essense: I aim to get 90% of the response (range of sounds) I want out of the instrument itself. Then I add and subtract a little through the rest of the sound-chain until I'm happy with the end-result.
| chris ivey wrote: |
the best idea is to just pick a guitar and settle back into learning it and making it sound good.
you'll find in time that what you make that sound like, is pretty much what any other combination of gear is going to sound like with you playing it. |
I may not agree 100% with that, but the statement is close enough for comfort. Reason is of course that "personal style and preferences" will take over and determine the sound, almost regardless of equipment. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2016 3:38 am
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Amp makes a huge difference, IMO (less so once you're into the amps people think of as steel amps. Other EQ/preamp circuits just really impart a different flavor).
Pickup selection kinda nibbles around the edges.
A great amp can save a dud guitar.
A horrible amp can wreck a good guitar.
Pickups just change from Serrano to jalapeño peppers.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 May 2016 9:29 am
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What Lane said! Amps are really critical with a pedal steel. We have no 2nd or 3rd pickup to switch to, and we have (usually) no tone or mixing controls on the guitar. Therefore, we need really good capabilities in an amp that a lead player probably doesn't require.
Except for those players that are insufferable snobs about the one particular brand they play (uhh...you know who you are) you just need to keep in mind that once you have good equipment, the brands matter very little. If you can play, you can make anything sound good. And if you can't, you'll likely be unhappy. End of story.
Still think certain equipment makes a big difference?
| Quote: |
Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.
Buddy Emmons |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 28 May 2016 10:05 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
the best idea is to just pick a guitar and settle back into learning it and making it sound good.
you'll find in time that what you make that sound like, is pretty much what any other combination of gear is going to sound like with you playing it. |
Amen Chris. A few years ago, 5 Good steel players had an experiment with my Williams guitar. I set the amp and reverb to my liking. I played a few bars, got up and the next player played a few bars until all 5 players had played my set up. 5 different tones came out of the same set up, without changing a thing. It's the player....JMO |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 28 May 2016 9:55 pm
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No, a steel is in a way like a fiddle whe it comes to tone. No matter what amp or what pickup you use, if the instrument sounds like crap, it's still going to sound like crap. It can be improved a little with equipment or pickups but it's still not going to sound good.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 29 May 2016 7:16 am
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| I recommend you do like I did. Buy every guitar, amp, speaker, pickup, effect, and gizmo only to realize that I sucked. Then get serious and practice and develop your skills. |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 29 May 2016 4:09 pm
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Every aspect of your setup makes a difference; some more than others. I don't think brands of strings or picks, or cords make much difference, but pickups, amps,effects, the player's hands all contribute to tone. IMHO, the single biggest factor in determining tone is whether or not the guitar has aluminum necks, and whether or not it is keyless. Also, it seems that scale length helps determine the sound. I feel that aluminum neck guitars with tuning keys have a resonance & throatiness that can't be gotten with wooden necks or keyless setups, and no amp, pickup, effect or anything else can get that throatiness. Some wooden neck guitars have great tone, most notably LDGs, MSA Classics, & Deckleys, but for the most part they just cannot duplicate the contemporary aluminum neck sound.
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A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 29 May 2016 4:25 pm
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The question must be asked, besides us fanatics, WHO CARES?
Audiences certainly don't.
It's true that you can tell the difference between my Music Man and my Quilter amps when you play them side by side and compare them, but I've gigged with both of them, and nobody has ever noticed which one I was using. The same is true with the different pickups.
Instead of worrying about what length of cable or what gauge of picks to use, we should all (including me,) be putting our energy into learning to play better.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 29 May 2016 9:28 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
The question must be asked, besides us fanatics, WHO CARES?
Audiences certainly don't.
It's true that you can tell the difference between my Music Man and my Quilter amps when you play them side by side and compare them, but I've gigged with both of them, and nobody has ever noticed which one I was using. The same is true with the different pickups.
Instead of worrying about what length of cable or what gauge of picks to use, we should all (including me,) be putting our energy into learning to play better. |
The only right answer in this thread. There's a dimes worth of difference as far as the audience is concerned. Play a guitar and amp combo that you prefer,and play it into submission ! The one single thing I did to my guitar was switch to a Telonics pickup. It brought out the tone that was already built into the guitar. That was my personal preference,patrons could've cared less....
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 30 May 2016 4:14 am
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I think Mike Sweeney has THE tone.
1994 Zum, Digitech pedal delay, digitech pedal reverb, Nashville 400 with eminence neo in it.
So...
I duplicated that rig down to the brand of batteries in the pedals.
And that rig sounds JUST LIKE Mike's tone, BUT only when Mike is playing it... 
I put a Zum pickup in a Derby guitar once and you know believe it or not it sounded just like a Derby with a Zum pickup in it.
Tone...
My experience is its in the wood of the cabinet and the metal of the chassis.
It's in the windings on the pickup and and the quality of the magnets.
It's in the capacitors and the tubes and the ops amps and the wiring in the amplifier.
It's in the paper in the speaker cones and the pot in your volume pedal.
But...
Most of all it's in the hands of the player.
I've spent tens of thousands of dollars chasing tone when I shoulda been practicing what Mike was teaching me.
My $.02.....
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 30 May 2016 5:37 am
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Audiophiles used to say that the phono pickup was the most important thing (probably after they'd spent thousands on amps and speakers)
as it originates the signal in the chain and the relative cost is small.
I agree that no one else might notice (but the audiophile or steel player) but whatever it takes to get the sound to the player's ears is better.
My Alumitone was better, so I'm looking for another... but the sound seems to be in the signal chain from the ears to the hands. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 30 May 2016 6:11 am
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The most important part of the equipment chain is the nut behind the rear apron.
I agree with Chris Ivey, you will sound like whoever you are pretty much regardless of what rig you have.
That said, certain guitars have qualitative characteristics that may be preferable to some players more than others. I shared a gig with Buzz Evans on guitar and on the first night I played a very nice vintage "brand X" D-10. Buzz admired it, "hey man, beautiful old horn."
The next week I brought a 1983 Emmons PP. Buzz said "Can I make a comment? I don't want to offend you..." I said sure, and he said "well, that Emmons totally EATS the Brand X's LUNCH."
In the hands of a competent player, all guitars are probably gonna sound "good," but when compared side-by-side with other comparable instruments, one or the other may be the preferred choice.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 30 May 2016 7:03 am
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| Len Amaral wrote: |
| I recommend you do like I did. Buy every guitar, amp, speaker, pickup, effect, and gizmo only to realize that I sucked. Then get serious and practice and develop your skills. |
Thumbs up, Len  |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 30 May 2016 9:41 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
Chris,
No, it is not just a single item that contributes to the difference in tone between one guitar and the next. It is a combination of things and all these things added together makes the difference, including the color shirt you are wearing when you play it. :roll: :lol:
Sorry about that last remark, I just couldn't help myself! :D |
Well in that case Erv, One sounds the best wearing a black shirt? |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 30 May 2016 10:11 am
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Interesting topic. I'm enjoying the comments.
I like what Mike P. said:
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
The question must be asked, besides us fanatics, WHO CARES?
Audiences certainly don't.
Instead of worrying about what length of cable or what gauge of picks to use, we should all (including me,) be putting our energy into learning to play better. |
On the one hand, it's difficult to produce pleasing tones with inferior equipment.
On the other hand, superior equipment doesn't guarantee pleasing tones.
On the third hand, the audience probably doesn't notice any difference.
All the little bits and pieces count, though. |
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Tom Campbell
From:
Houston, Texas, USA
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Posted 30 May 2016 10:31 am
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I agree with Lenny Amaral...I've tried all sorts of amps and steel brands, only to finally figure out the lemon was me.
Now I'm working on making "lemon aid" |
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