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Topic: Please Close |
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 8:24 am |
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| Nick Koff wrote: |
I don't get all these comments. "No hired guns" simply means 1) we play music together and 2) we're not looking for anyone who only works for money. They are letting you know up front that this isn't the gig for you. I know for a fact that there are a few players who have put a long, long time into learning their craft and strongly resent newer players who 1) still have the energy to attack the game and 2) get to enjoy the learning process and the joy of achieving new plateaus because they can't anymore.
This latest spin into a rant over singer/bandleaders is especially amusing. This thread is starting to look like "Get off my damn lawn, you unruly kids !!" |
Nick, you are free to ignore the thread.
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
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Posted 14 May 2016 8:30 am
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| Carl Mesrobian wrote: |
| Nick Koff wrote: |
I don't get all these comments. "No hired guns" simply means 1) we play music together and 2) we're not looking for anyone who only works for money. They are letting you know up front that this isn't the gig for you. I know for a fact that there are a few players who have put a long, long time into learning their craft and strongly resent newer players who 1) still have the energy to attack the game and 2) get to enjoy the learning process and the joy of achieving new plateaus because they can't anymore.
This latest spin into a rant over singer/bandleaders is especially amusing. This thread is starting to look like "Get off my damn lawn, you unruly kids !!" |
Nick, you are free to ignore the thread. |
Spoken like a true, disgruntled old man. Perhaps the phrase refers to direct notice that the bands aren't looking for people like you so please don't waste their time.
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy... |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 8:40 am
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Ageism at its finest.
Nick , your age is showing 
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
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Posted 14 May 2016 8:46 am
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| Carl Mesrobian wrote: |
Ageism at its finest.
Nick , your age is showing |
Sure, at 63 I realize I'm one of those irrepressible kids. Carl, if you just wanted to rant in a vacuum, that's fine. But you should understand some people just want to play music with the same bunch of people for fun in an organized way and an ad is a way to attract the attention of a like-minded player. If you were talking about people advertising for players to go do paying gigs with the idea that the people putting out the ad were going to be keeping all of the money, I suppose that's a different issue.
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy... |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 9:08 am
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66 - I beat you 
I think it's the people who want to have someone to stay as part of the group, whether working or not. That's fine for the players who don't really care one way or the other. The term seems to emanate from a bar band mentality, as opposed to a band with a production crew, etc., mentality. EDIT - or the term emanates from a bunch of players who want to get together for fun. Lots of bands will outright say that they are in it for fun. It should be fun whether working or not, I would think..
I don't think the ads imply that the band will keep all the money. It's more implied that "we want you to stick around". They are looking for a player who will join the group and not disappear after the gig. I am not the type who wants to commit totally to a situation that has a few restaurant/bar dates on the calendar. I will if my main gig in a 10 piece tribute band is idle on those dates. There is a balancing point, of course.
Me and a bass player I know were in a band together. It was a situation where we gave our word to do the gigs that were on the schedule. The bass player's sole means of income is teaching and playing. He turned down calls for gigs from others only to find that the band we were in would cancel dates, which left him high and dry for work. He quit, then I quit. He played with a national artist a while ago, and I'm in a 10 piece band with tons of work on the calendar.
I can go to a local open mic or blues jam and have fun with a bunch of the best musicians north of Boston. I don't expect to get paid or get a gig from it. I expect to have a blast hanging out.
It's all good.
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
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Posted 14 May 2016 9:19 am
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Of course it is. I know this is hard to believe, and I'm not trying to shock you here, or bum you out, but I actually know musicians, some of them quite gifted, who are so desperate to get opportunities to play live on stage somewhere that they will play for free. That's how much they want to play somewhere besides their woodshed or living room. How pathetic is that? I'm telling you, Los Angeles is not the place you want to be if getting a respectful paycheck is your main priority.
I am talking about a band here, run by someone with a vision, or a sense of humor, or a personal agenda to do certain music the way they want. Of course there are opportunities for session players and side men, but I'm talking about doing the music I want to play, not the music the man is paying for.
It seems insane to me that someone looking for a side man to fill in a slot for a gig would be looking for a non-hired-gun for a casual or a specific event. How could that even happen?
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy... |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 9:34 am
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In Boston I'm guessing the typical pay for recent Berklee grad is pizza and a beer. After one year the pay goes up to pizza with one topping and a micro brew beer. Not bad for spending all that money on music school.
As I previously mentioned, bars/restaurants around here pay from $200 - 300...or they give you a basket to pass around. The way I see it, the venue never loses money 
When I see an ad for a band looking for a sideman, my first question is "Do you have dates?" - if yes, "When and where?"
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
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Posted 14 May 2016 9:44 am
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Okay, perfect clarity.
An ad looking for a sideman will never say "No Hired Hands" because that's exactly what they are looking for and an ad looking for people to play with informally (although possibly with the idea of building something that might gig eventually) will often say "No Hired Hands."
You should be glad that they are giving you clear-cut notice that they don't want to waste your time or theirs up-front.
It's not personal, sonny, it's business !!
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy... |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 10:13 am
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_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 14 May 2016 10:37 am
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I informally play with several bands here in Central Texas, but I refuse to officially be "hired" or work for pay.
I do require a pre-arranged honorarium, however.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 14 May 2016 11:33 am
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| Quote: |
| ...so desperate to get opportunities to play live on stage somewhere that they will play for free. |
Or worse yet... pay to play. Like when a local band opens for a well know road act at a local venue. The local band plays for "exposure". If they're lucky the club might throw them a few crumbs from the door. And the club will take a percentage of the band's CD sales (in exchange for table space). The result could be a net loss, financially. I've never done a gig like that and I never will. I'd much rather drive an hour for regular pay than play locally for basically nothing.
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
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Posted 14 May 2016 11:45 am
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...so desperate to get opportunities to play live on stage somewhere that they will play for free. |
Or worse yet... pay to play. Like when a local band opens for a well know road act at a local venue. The local band plays for "exposure". If they're lucky the club might throw them a few crumbs from the door. And the club will take a percentage of the band's CD sales (in exchange for table space). The result could be a net loss, financially. I've never done a gig like that and I never will. I'd much rather drive an hour for regular pay than play locally for basically nothing. |
Yes, here in L.A. "Pay to Play" is the cancer. Sometimes it's couched in, buy a minimum number of tickets at 5 bucks - say 30... then sell them yourself for 10 bucks to make your cut. It's horrifying. When I was coming up, we had FIFTY live venues in Santa Cruz where music was heard every night and people got paid. Here in L.A. there seem to be around five venues (if you don't do EDM or hideous deathmetal or worse...)
I count us as lucky to get to gig locally, and we never play without compensation, and never pay to play. It's getting people out to the clubs that's really a problem. People past a certain age get seepy by around 9:00 PM and don't want to get out of their rockers much. Because the bars also expect us to bring them a roomful of customers ...
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy...
Last edited by Nick Koff on 14 May 2016 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 11:45 am
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"Exposure" - indecent, no less.. I rest my case about pizza and beer being a good wage in a Boston venue..
Back to the shop - I have a bass getting pretty steamy by now..
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 May 2016 12:43 pm
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| Nick Koff wrote: |
| ...Because the bars also expect us to bring them a roomful of customers ... |
Customers who spend lots of money 
It's the singing of the cash register - that's the music the venues want to hear most.. I can't blame them, but I can't praise them either..
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Joe Casey
From:
Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)
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Posted 15 May 2016 6:50 am
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I did the play for exposure thing a couple of times when I first moved to one area. But my band always got paid full wage. I found out early in life that a paid Musician can be a Happy Musician. Or he who gets paid together usually stays together. And I most always had full time Musicians except towards the end. I had two PA systems so on the Sit down Gigs we never moved anything but the Mikes and stands and each player moved his own equipment. Ofcourse unless he was hurt and needed help. Working a Sit Down Gig I use to give tapes to each player and my Keys with numbers chart. If we backed up an uncontained Nashville Artist we did learn his or her music. Musicians get tired of the same old same old and the public does too. I did too so I tried to add new stuff every week. Having good musicians who read the numbers charts made it easier. If some musicians had a rule they would only work for what they thought they were worth. I doubt if they would work that cheap.   |
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Bob Ricker
From:
Nashville Tn
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Posted 15 May 2016 7:44 am
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It's interesting to look back at the early 1970's club scenes. Remembering playing rock and roll clubs for all the gate for $4-$6 per person and usually pretty good crowds, this worked well. Even smaller town honkytonks usually paid about $60 or more per player. Some of these places even had 10 cent draws for a while early in the evening. Beer was nowhere close to $4.00 and I can't remember what mixed drinks cost then, probably less than a dollar. College dances and high school proms paid great then, usually at least close to $200 per player, and up, and we usually had a four piece band.
During the mid-to-late 1960's after high school football/basketball game dances used to pay about $150-$300, that included playing "Gloria" twice. |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 15 May 2016 7:54 am
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In 1973 a Dewar's on the rocks was $1.75 at the Holiday Inn in Washington, DC.
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 15 May 2016 7:59 am
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We did 6 nights and Sunday was for vegging out - no music stuff at all..
A self sidetracking thread, and I helped
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 15 May 2016 8:03 am Please Close
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Thanks!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 15 May 2016 8:12 am
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| During the mid-to-late 1960's after high school football/basketball game dances used to pay about $150-$300, that included playing "Gloria" twice. |
Not worth it! |
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Joe Casey
From:
Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)
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Posted 15 May 2016 8:32 am
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Dougie B I can attest to fact you worked 7 nights a week and sometimes twice on Sundays. you were always on demand but never available. LOL Luckily I had the same schedule but a lot easier before I retired to Florida. The Money was always good at least for a few bands I had three incomes at one time until I left my Day Job. Afterwards I could sleep late and got by on only two. Tough Job but someone had to do it eh?
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 May 2016 9:07 am
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| oh well...you can always sell guitars for a living. |
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Mike Ester
From:
New Braunfels, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 May 2016 10:04 am
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| Justin Griffith wrote: |
Some bands are just a posse of hired guns. Some bands are more than that, IMO. The whole is sometimes more than the sum of the parts, and if someone can't do the gig, you don't take the gig. Yes, sometimes the whole is less than the sum of the parts - in that case, a lot of rehearsals are a waste of time.
Agreed about being "greater than the sum of the parts" There is a band that plays every Sunday at a dancehall down the street. They are all good players, but together they are almost magical. 15 years of the same guys playing together really makes a difference.
You Texas guys know most of us are "hired guns". You get called for a gig, they may send a setlist or any original material, you learn it.
When you get to the gig, you recognize a bunch of the guys you have played with before. You set up your stuff and play. End of story.
A lot of "singers/bandleaders" have a little ego thing about us working with others. I choose not to be around folks like that. |
I learned my lesson the hard way about being loyal to one band in 2009. Since then, I tell people that I am in "free-agent" status.
People know how to contact me for a gig. My M.O. is that he who calls first gets me for that date. Once in a blue moon, a gig may get cancelled. But I can count those times on one hand.
The bottom line: my mental health and conscience are that much the better since I became a "hired gun". I'm much happier.
_________________
U.S.A.F. 1978-1982
2005 Carter S12U 7x5
1978 Sho-Bud Pro II Custom 8x4
If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning. |
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Joe Casey
From:
Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)
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Posted 15 May 2016 1:01 pm
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| I've known a lot of Musicians that only did music for a living. Most of them owe me money |
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